Atlantics - "Come On" strange rumour

[Toddophonic]

I would be incredulous regarding 10 copies. But 1,000? Bosshoss you are going to have to vet your friend! The other side of the coin is why would someone make this up? Usually a fabrication would go in the opposite direction...I'm sure we've all bought some dealer's "last copy" only to discover them selling another one the following week.

 

[bosshoss]

One possibility (just a theory, with no evidence), is that someone is accidentally or deliberately putting a false rumour out to muddy the waters regarding the recent MGM reissue. Possibly someone who intends to make a profit from selling copies of the reissue at inflated prices.

 

[Michael W]

I forget if I read this, or was told, but apparently Philips only made 50 copies of The Missing Links "H'tuom Tuhs" 45, so tiny pressings were not unheard of. Also that The Pink Finks "Louie Louie" on Mojo made the Melbourne top ten after selling 500 copies, so big runs were not needed for these small markets. If a record took off they could always make more.

 

[Blank Records]

My understanding is 300 would have been an initial run, with maybe another hundred promos. then whatever didn't sell would be taken to the tip to claim back the sales tax on the manufacture. that practice existed in australia right through until a new sales tax system was introduced (G.S.T). towards the end sales tax on manufacture was 22% (maybe even 24%, definately 22% tough) so if the record was a total flop, made sense to cut loses and get back your sales tax.

same thing happened in the u.k from what i can tell with v.a.t. in the mid 70's enterprising people who worked at tips / dumps would do deals with the labels and then have little ads in nme magazine where you get a lucky dip of 45's for a small amount money. this is where they came from. then the tax man was wise to it and would need to witness the destruction of them to get back your v.a.t.

never got that way in australia as far as witnessing destruction, but i can say in my time i saw many records from the late 80's and 90's that sunk end up in the tip for sales tax rebate.

 

[Blank Records]

oh and on the actual atlantics find. makes absolutely no sense. but stranger things have happened. i was in u.k when a barn was cleared in the 90's and a van was in it untouched from the 1960's covered in crap and only spotted when the barn was cleared....it was filled with stock that was meant for delivery but never made it.. hundreds of copies of what were very rare early u.k bow tie label island ska 45's...most of the titles ended up in a store in croydon for a fiver....needles to say, i bought as much as i could carry out!

 

[Michael W]

Is there any way of finding out what the actual pressing numbers were for Aussie 45s? Presumably Festival would have an archive of their stuff.

 

[Michael W]

I forget if I read this, or was told, but apparently Philips only made 50 copies of The Missing Links "H'tuom Tuhs" 45, so tiny pressings were not unheard of. Also that The Pink Finks "Louie Louie" on Mojo made the Melbourne top ten after selling 500 copies, so big runs were not needed for these small markets. If a record took off they could always make more.

It's in the intro to Kommotion #1 - Pink Finks "Louie, Louie" made it to number 16 on the Melbourne charts by selling under 1,000 copies.

 

[soundog III]

Has this ever been documented? If you are talking abut fer instance Deram or Fontana freakbeat flops. I recently read that the early 70s Vertigo flops that sells for $$$$$ had a minimum pressing run of 5000 copies, often more than that. Yet they are pretty thin on the ground today.

Hmmm, with all due respect for your invariably sage insights, I would drop a naught & go with 500 as a likely quantity.

Merely conjecture, but I will run with my gut on this one. Stay tuned (not) for documentation of aforesaid endeavor...

 

[Stampy]

To put some context into it, the bloke who sent away the Bobby Dean and the Worried Minds acetate to be pressed to quantity via AWA said they did not do less than 500 copies for that run or any others that came out. So I can believe 1000 in the Sydney market - I am skeptical to a find of 1000, more likely 100 - a box!

Orders for Festival distributed single discs started at 200, then 300, 500 and 1000. Not sure about EPs.

 

[soundog III]

Not that size necessarily matters, until it does or doesn't, but presuming that any # of independent US garage 45' were produced in 500 (average?) runs in a country of 200+ million residents in the mid sixties, then, it might appear reasonable to assume that not so many more, or conceivably fewer copies would be the production norm in a country of what, perhaps 12 million souls during the same time frame?

OK, thanks to the likes of Go-Set & perhaps other regional periodicals I know not much of (Everydays?) the news may well have spread further & wide, I will certainly allow that Australia might possibly ? have been a bit more tightly knit / integrated culturally than the US at the time.

But I'll venture 90+% (minimally) of locally produced regional 45's never realized significant distribution outside of a very local radius upon release.

How'd the Bad Seed's fare in Lubbuck?

As a study in contrast consider that Spokane or thereabouts, wherever... --->Palma, Ohio ---> Sylacauga, Alabama can be viewed as being quite a geographic leap... not dissimilar to Perth to Darwin, by way of Hobart, say.

These areas might have encompassed a few million inhabitants back then. How many sprang for Paul Bearer or Alarm Clocks or Tempo's offerings in real time?

1000 x Atlantic's 45's , unremarked upon for close onto 50 years? Hmmm, maybe?

Anyone here able to comment on the French warehouse find of a few years back?

 

[chas_kit]

Not that size necessarily matters, until it does or doesn't, but presuming that any # of independent US garage 45' were produced in 500 (average?) runs in a country of 200+ million residents in the mid sixties, then, it might appear reasonable to assume that not so many more, or conceivably fewer copies would be the production norm in a country of what, perhaps 12 million souls during the same time frame?

Can't compare local private or small label US garage 45s to the Australian scene, which was a national one, at least for a band on Festival or Sunshine. A more apt comparison would be to the many groups that released a 45 or two on a major label like RCA or Columbia, in runs of at least 5,000 I would guess. I'm sure MopTop or someone else can weigh in with specifics on press runs for major label 45s.

 

[MopTopMike]

I knew a guy who worked for RCA's custom pressing division.
He stated that custom client orders were no less than 500 copies. 90% of custom clients opted for the 1,000 copies package because it was only a few more bucks than 500. It wasn't cost effective to set up production for fewer than 1,000 copies. He also said Columbia's custom house operated on the same basis.

The parent and distributed labels pressed no fewer than 2,500 promotional copies. Most promos on RCA numbered in the 5,000 or higher range.

i have to chuckle whenever I read on-line recollections from people who say their group's record was pressed in limited numbers, like just 50 or 100 copies. Maybe that's all they got (most of them had someone else handle the business of getting a record manufactured), or maybe they didn't pay their full billing amount when it was due. Rite Record Company was the only manufacturer I have come across that offered a package of no less than 100 copies per client order. Because they created their own stampers in most cases, they could offer less than 500 pressings. Most independent record pressing outfits had their stampers created elsewhere (like Nashville Matrix) because of the cost (equipment, work space, etc).

I haven't seen any documentation or paperwork from Wakefield pressings that offered a price list for custom clients, but 500 minimum would likely be the lowest production run.

As for Australian pressings, since these were done by major labels (everything in house, country-wide self distribution or a solid distribution network, etc) the production cost of plating, then manufacturing discs at that time would suggest that no less than 1,000 would have been contracted. 500 is not really enough, when you think about potential recipients - promotion, giveaways to fans, radio stations, booking agents, venues, etc).

 

[Mr.Segment]

Hmmm, with all due respect for your invariably sage insights, I would drop a naught & go with 500 as a likely quantity.

Merely conjecture, but I will run with my gut on this one. Stay tuned (not) for documentation of aforesaid endeavor...

Not sure if you refer to the pressing run on Vertigo titles or the 45s, but if the latter; I find it strange if operations behind labels such as Fontana, Decca and Philips (fer instance) would even bother dabbling with such low press runs. I'd be more willing to accept that more poorly run labels like Deram, MGM and Immediate would perhaps try a 500 press run and then abandon the project altogether if it did not stick.

Also, in a country were the sound engineers wore white frocks, surely archives must exist detailing press runs?

 

[buckeyebeat]

The Pama pressing plant in Cleveland is the only place I know about that did less than 100 pressings. There are records that are documented less than 100 pressings. The Boddie pressing plant in Cleveland had several records listed in their paperwork that were 100 pressings, although it seems that there are some incorrect numbers.

In the case of Paul Bearer and the Hearsemen, I believe there was 500 stock copies, and maybe 100 or so promo copies. Only one band member had a copy, the distribution was handled by the Etiquette operation so the band members were only given a handful each. The copies were distributed across a wide area, as Etiquette had some success with the Sonics and Wailers.

The default order for any Musicol related 45 was 250 copies, but almost everything was raised up to 500 or more.

 

[jerry dickens]

Has this ever been documented? If you are talking abut fer instance Deram or Fontana freakbeat flops. I recently read that the early 70s Vertigo flops that sells for $$$$$ had a minimum pressing run of 5000 copies, often more than that. Yet they are pretty thin on the ground today.

Due to the way the UK record business operated in the 50s and 60s, it is not surprising that so few copies of certain 45s have survived. It was not how many were pressed; it was how many found their way into retail outlets, most of which only stocked 'The Top Ten' (or Twenty). Anything outwith this narrow inventory had to be ordered by the customer. Paradoxically, most records were available for at least 2 years after their original issue date. I remember a friend of mine ordering a Yardbirds EP in 1970. It was still available 5 years after its first appearance.

In the early 70s, the emphasis was on albums. Fans of 'heavy' or 'progressive' rock hardly ever bought 45s, which did not stay in catalogue for long. In 1974 I remember receiving a priced wants list from a Gerrman rock fan offering substantial amounts of money for UK 45s that were less than 3 years old. Even though avarice encouraged me to seek out these records on my daily hunting expeditions, I found very few of them.

 

[chas_kit]

Paradoxically, most records were available for at least 2 years after their original issue date. I remember a friend of mine ordering a Yardbirds EP in 1970. It was still available 5 years after its first appearance.

I have a number of catalogs of singles available for order in the UK in 1967, '68, '69 and '70 and there are a remarkable number of interesting 45s listed, though not, for example, Winston's Fumbs. A surprising number of African and Jamaican artists listed, but that makes sense in the light of special order vs. stocking pop singles.

 

[Mr.Segment]

Anything outwith this narrow inventory had to be ordered by the customer. Paradoxically, most records were available for at least 2 years after their original issue date. I remember a friend of mine ordering a Yardbirds EP in 1970. It was still available 5 years after its first appearance.

.

That is a very good point and a fact I forgot when I wrote my initial post. Because it means a label could press 1000+ but would rely on press/dj action and if nothing happened, the 1000+ press you could order would basically probably be written off and be recycled/trashed. Which would explain why bigger label monstrosities is so thin off the ground today.

If the old Texan adage of P+P=A did not take place you were done.

For newer forum members, P+P=A turned out to be short for pussy + pills = airplay. Cheers, The Kidd

 

[cass]

having gone through some of the old invoices at Archer Record Pressing in Detroit, 500 was usually the minimum/standard order there. sometimes pressings as low as 100 show up there, but it's very, very infrequent.

 

[Blank Records]

Is there any way of finding out what the actual pressing numbers were for Aussie 45s? Presumably Festival would have an archive of their stuff.

Festival had an awesome archive of material like that. Problem is Festival don't exist anymore. Every time these companies are bought up / change hands etc the suits that do the deals don't care for anything more than the paperwork pertaining to rights of the sound recordings and the master tapes (where applicable). Everything else becomes landfill. Some of the stuff i personally know about getting pitched would leave you in tears to hear about.

 

[Blank Records]

Anyone here able to comment on the French warehouse find of a few years back?

i saw the cheap end stuff show up at a utrecht show for 5 euro a throw. a couple of tables had 100 counts of lot's of early to mid 70's soul / pop / rock . guy spoke poor english but told me it was a warehouse find from 60's through to 70's. seemed to be evasive about what there was in 60's french ep's when i asked about some of those heavy pieces...had single copies of the pricey stuff on the wall display...so they were keeping their cards close to the chest on the high end bits as far as quantity..