Phil Istine
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
Out Monday...
Last Of The Garage Punk Unknowns Volumes 3 & 4
- Thread starter Phil Istine
- Start date
Phil Istine
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
VOLUME 3
SIDE ONE:
1. The Shade "ALL IS GONE"
2. The Young Strangers "SHE'S GONE"
3. The Rogues "OPPORTUNITY"
4. The Tempos "ALL THAT I REALLY WANT"
5. The In-Set "THEY SAY"
6. Skip Ellis "ICE CUBE GIRL"
7. The Fathoms "DOWN TO THE SEA"
8. The Torques "IT'S ME NOT YOU"
9. The Kinetics "LITTLE GIRL"
Side TWO:
1. Apollo's Apaches "BOSS (Be Good To Me)"
2. The Vespers "WILL SHE LOVE ME"
3. The Impalas "MASS CONFUSION"
4. The Poverty Five "JUST LIKE ME"
5. Eddie Day And The Night Timers "HOW TO BE A MUSICIAN"
6. The Edges Of Wisdom "THAT LONELY ROAD"
7. The Herd "THINGS WON'T CHANGE"
8. ThisIsIt "NEEDLES AND NIGHTMARES"
VOLUME 4
Side ONE:
1. The Zounds "ME AND MY GIRL"
2. The Vespers "GIRL GIRL GIRL"
3. The Ryells Combo "ONLY AS LONG AS YOU WANT IT"
4. The Jazzmasters "WALKIN' "
5. The Tortians "VIBRATIONS"
6. The Fugitive Five "(I AIN'T GONNA GIVE UP) MY WAY OF LIFE"
7. The Five Counts "GOING AWAY FROM YOU"
8. The Couriers "MY BABY DOESN'T LOVE ME ANY MORE"
Side TWO:
1. Skip Ellis "YOU'RE BAD"
2. The Last Image "LEAVING YOU"
3. The Henchmen "SAY"
4. The Cavaliers "CHECKMATE"
5. The Mystics "I DON'T WANT TO"
6. Sound Carnival "DREAMS"
7. The Blue Vistas "FOUR INCHES ABOVE THE KNEES"
SIDE ONE:
1. The Shade "ALL IS GONE"
2. The Young Strangers "SHE'S GONE"
3. The Rogues "OPPORTUNITY"
4. The Tempos "ALL THAT I REALLY WANT"
5. The In-Set "THEY SAY"
6. Skip Ellis "ICE CUBE GIRL"
7. The Fathoms "DOWN TO THE SEA"
8. The Torques "IT'S ME NOT YOU"
9. The Kinetics "LITTLE GIRL"
Side TWO:
1. Apollo's Apaches "BOSS (Be Good To Me)"
2. The Vespers "WILL SHE LOVE ME"
3. The Impalas "MASS CONFUSION"
4. The Poverty Five "JUST LIKE ME"
5. Eddie Day And The Night Timers "HOW TO BE A MUSICIAN"
6. The Edges Of Wisdom "THAT LONELY ROAD"
7. The Herd "THINGS WON'T CHANGE"
8. ThisIsIt "NEEDLES AND NIGHTMARES"
VOLUME 4
Side ONE:
1. The Zounds "ME AND MY GIRL"
2. The Vespers "GIRL GIRL GIRL"
3. The Ryells Combo "ONLY AS LONG AS YOU WANT IT"
4. The Jazzmasters "WALKIN' "
5. The Tortians "VIBRATIONS"
6. The Fugitive Five "(I AIN'T GONNA GIVE UP) MY WAY OF LIFE"
7. The Five Counts "GOING AWAY FROM YOU"
8. The Couriers "MY BABY DOESN'T LOVE ME ANY MORE"
Side TWO:
1. Skip Ellis "YOU'RE BAD"
2. The Last Image "LEAVING YOU"
3. The Henchmen "SAY"
4. The Cavaliers "CHECKMATE"
5. The Mystics "I DON'T WANT TO"
6. Sound Carnival "DREAMS"
7. The Blue Vistas "FOUR INCHES ABOVE THE KNEES"
Mario
Pharaoh Class
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2014
I received these yesterday along with my other goodies from crypt, and I must say it's a FANTASTIC follow up to the first two volumes.
The Vespers - Will She Love Me is a GREAT one! I'm guessing that was one of the tracks that got demoted from BFTG status? It sure has grave attitude!
The Zounds - Me And My Girl is another fine track that I remember hearing in Tim's early BFTG sampler. Either way, it's good to have these songs on legitimate comps now. I can't wait to complete the collection! This is really shaping up to be a GREAT SERIES!
The Vespers - Will She Love Me is a GREAT one! I'm guessing that was one of the tracks that got demoted from BFTG status? It sure has grave attitude!
The Zounds - Me And My Girl is another fine track that I remember hearing in Tim's early BFTG sampler. Either way, it's good to have these songs on legitimate comps now. I can't wait to complete the collection! This is really shaping up to be a GREAT SERIES!
Laurent Bigot
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
- Location
- Paris, France
that's one of the reasons I'd love to see Tim keeping this series going on over the years, to reveal new great tracks that pop up now and then, and to give tracks already known but badly resurrected a proper treatment. the four volumes so far (plus the awesome hodad hoot too) are awesome on both matters.
Frantic
G45 Legend
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
I fully agree.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Location
- The shores of southern CT
Well, Timmy needs to move at least 2,000 of each title to be able to do another comp or two.
That ain't gonna happen, based on his past sales reports!
That ain't gonna happen, based on his past sales reports!
Frantic
G45 Legend
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
It's a sad world when you can't sell 2000 measley rekkids.
sylvain
Ikon Class
- Joined
- May 31, 2011
Can't believe things are going that bad given the HEAVY exposure his latest outputs received those last weeks. They were seen and praised everywhere, from FB to the review pages of most mags dealing with rock, even some of the most mainstream kind. I won't believe anyone saying that the latest BFTG volumes sold below 3'000 copies so far. As far as Last of the Garage Punk Unknonws, they probably address to a lesser audience, but still, selling 2'000 copies (does it mean CD+ LP sales?) when you have a label with such a notoriety and a credibility as Crypts' shouldn't be a problem. This is just a matter of time, but I *guess* that selling at least 2000 copies of any of those comps within 3 months after their releases shouldn't be a problem ? Or are things going that *bad* ? Can't believe there's less than 2000 people in this world still caring for 60s garage punk, when the "garage"vibes are back on the crest of the wave since a couple of years, with a lot of new bands coming up under that flag ? There's 8 volumes planned in the series so far. I was expecting the next pair showing up before the summer... aint it gonna be the case ?
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Location
- The shores of southern CT
Reviews and exposure do not automatically guarantee sales.
Tim sends out tons of free promotional copies - to review sources, as well as everyone who had a hand in helping. I'll bet he ships out a few hundred freebies of every comp. I saw the amount spent for shipping for one of the comps a while back. That nets a big deficit for money needed to recoup expenses.
I'll have to ask him about the other releases. I know he said it's just barely past a break-even forecast at this point down the road, even with the new Grave double set. I'm sure he moved about 2,000 copies, but not all of those are sold at full retail. Just because you can sell a couple thousand, which is a miracle in 2015, it does not equate to making back your investment in full.
We've discussed this topic many, many times in the past, but the numbers are not there anymore with regard to people who will buy compilations. and it doesn't matter what the label or brand name is. In the past, pre internet, if you wanted it, you bought a comp as soon as it was out. Ask Ned, who helped manage and operate a record store. The days when new Back From the Graves came out, they flew out of the store.
Today? Everyone has many options to purchase. Or, listen for free. And there is often a wait and see attitude - no sense of "I gotta have it NOW", which was nearly universal 30 years ago. And finances are still a rough time for the majority of people.
Everyone told me, and advised me, that once my book was ready to print, I could sell 2,000 copies. Easy. After all, people were clamoring for something to use as a reference which is focused on the subject - not just the collectors of original pressings. So, I figured out my baseline price and crunched numbers. Once I was able to sell enough copies at full retail price to pay back my huge loan needed to be able to print the book (around 250 copies a time frame that took a lot longer than you'd think), my plan was to lower the price. i did so a year later to entice people other than die-hards in buying it. However, even when the heavily discounted band member buys, and promotional freebies are deducted from the tally, I am far short of selling out the print run. And some people think I should sell another huge, 400+ page completely revised edition. Ha! No one would be able to afford it. When the supplement soft cover edition is ready to print next month, it will be very limited, likely no more than 350 copies as I crunch the numbers. And that will be it.
The number of people who care enough TO BUY are just not out there anymore. Books, records, CDs.
There is a difference between the folks who automatically buy something, and the folks who do not. 30 years ago, it was nearly universal that a comp would sell out, even the mediocre ones.
Tim sends out tons of free promotional copies - to review sources, as well as everyone who had a hand in helping. I'll bet he ships out a few hundred freebies of every comp. I saw the amount spent for shipping for one of the comps a while back. That nets a big deficit for money needed to recoup expenses.
I'll have to ask him about the other releases. I know he said it's just barely past a break-even forecast at this point down the road, even with the new Grave double set. I'm sure he moved about 2,000 copies, but not all of those are sold at full retail. Just because you can sell a couple thousand, which is a miracle in 2015, it does not equate to making back your investment in full.
We've discussed this topic many, many times in the past, but the numbers are not there anymore with regard to people who will buy compilations. and it doesn't matter what the label or brand name is. In the past, pre internet, if you wanted it, you bought a comp as soon as it was out. Ask Ned, who helped manage and operate a record store. The days when new Back From the Graves came out, they flew out of the store.
Today? Everyone has many options to purchase. Or, listen for free. And there is often a wait and see attitude - no sense of "I gotta have it NOW", which was nearly universal 30 years ago. And finances are still a rough time for the majority of people.
Everyone told me, and advised me, that once my book was ready to print, I could sell 2,000 copies. Easy. After all, people were clamoring for something to use as a reference which is focused on the subject - not just the collectors of original pressings. So, I figured out my baseline price and crunched numbers. Once I was able to sell enough copies at full retail price to pay back my huge loan needed to be able to print the book (around 250 copies a time frame that took a lot longer than you'd think), my plan was to lower the price. i did so a year later to entice people other than die-hards in buying it. However, even when the heavily discounted band member buys, and promotional freebies are deducted from the tally, I am far short of selling out the print run. And some people think I should sell another huge, 400+ page completely revised edition. Ha! No one would be able to afford it. When the supplement soft cover edition is ready to print next month, it will be very limited, likely no more than 350 copies as I crunch the numbers. And that will be it.
The number of people who care enough TO BUY are just not out there anymore. Books, records, CDs.
There is a difference between the folks who automatically buy something, and the folks who do not. 30 years ago, it was nearly universal that a comp would sell out, even the mediocre ones.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Maybe one should attempt to tap into the collector mentality for limited editions. Offer something unique with the first 1000 copies sold. Even if it's only a gimmick such as a dayglo sticker insert or some other low-cost inducement. That's all it usually takes to motivate the lethargic buying public. Get it now or miss out.
gregk25
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2011
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
That's the way many small-scale labels operate these days: limited editions for the die-hards at 50%+ and only from the source. the rest for the general public. Seems to work for them.
In rg. to a revised TBM: Why not propose an edition of 500 with just the bare-bone A-Z incl. all additions/corrections, add a 7"-reissue of two cool acetate / unreleased songs and put up a kick-starter site for whatever copy price you need to break even. I'd guess there'd be 500 people crazy enough to pay $200 for this (I would) and if not: forget about it again.
In rg. to a revised TBM: Why not propose an edition of 500 with just the bare-bone A-Z incl. all additions/corrections, add a 7"-reissue of two cool acetate / unreleased songs and put up a kick-starter site for whatever copy price you need to break even. I'd guess there'd be 500 people crazy enough to pay $200 for this (I would) and if not: forget about it again.
pfft
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
I know zero about running a record label, but this must definitely be the solution. Pressing 1000 or even 500 copies means that people will buy instantly instead of thinking "Oh, that can wait. I'll have to get the new ultra-limited comps from [XYZ] first."
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Location
- The shores of southern CT
I don't have any information regarding records, but the smaller the print run for books, the higher the cost per copy during manufacturing. It's a pretty steep rise in cost.
No way could I sell 500 copies of a completely revised TBM, even it was the lowest possible price (at least $150 per book). I barely sold 250 copies of TBM at full retail price, and it took almost a whole year time-wise to do so.
In addition, the entire book would have to be done from scratch and I do not have any interest in going down that road. FYI, I've sold a tad over 1,100 copies of TBM to date and only 25% of the total were sold at full retail price.
Dealing with a collector market is only an option nowadays if you can afford (cash wise) to do so. Producing 500 copies of a record costs a lot more than a larger pressing, not only for the cost per copy of manufacture, but for the time, effort, cash outlay, it limits your freebie / promotional amount, because you have to allow for enough copies to be sold at retail to cover costs.
People will not buy a compilation immediately unless you provide them with an incentive (buy one get one free, get the other release at 50% off, etc.). Simply billboarding a "limited edition" does nothing to open the wallet like pronto for most. Based upon this forum, there are only 40 people who would buy it now. I bet I only sold my book to 30 forum members at most. Every single member should have bought a copy, if you are a true fan or collector. Several bought more than one, but it's a dire reality of 2015 - interest is just not what it used to be.
No way could I sell 500 copies of a completely revised TBM, even it was the lowest possible price (at least $150 per book). I barely sold 250 copies of TBM at full retail price, and it took almost a whole year time-wise to do so.
In addition, the entire book would have to be done from scratch and I do not have any interest in going down that road. FYI, I've sold a tad over 1,100 copies of TBM to date and only 25% of the total were sold at full retail price.
Dealing with a collector market is only an option nowadays if you can afford (cash wise) to do so. Producing 500 copies of a record costs a lot more than a larger pressing, not only for the cost per copy of manufacture, but for the time, effort, cash outlay, it limits your freebie / promotional amount, because you have to allow for enough copies to be sold at retail to cover costs.
People will not buy a compilation immediately unless you provide them with an incentive (buy one get one free, get the other release at 50% off, etc.). Simply billboarding a "limited edition" does nothing to open the wallet like pronto for most. Based upon this forum, there are only 40 people who would buy it now. I bet I only sold my book to 30 forum members at most. Every single member should have bought a copy, if you are a true fan or collector. Several bought more than one, but it's a dire reality of 2015 - interest is just not what it used to be.
Laurent Bigot
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
- Location
- Paris, France
500 copies doesn't make sense for a label like Crypt (at least when it comes to 60s punk compilations), I'm pretty sure 2000 copies will eventually sell out but it'll take more time. Let's just hope it won't take too much time so that Tim still feels like keeping the project alive. You can tell how much work was put in those records, must be frustrating to see such a mild reaction from the "garage punk market".
jeffs11375
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2011
That might work for some labels but knowing Tim I can't see him doing this.
michaelvee
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2011
- Location
- Italy, Bologna
... pls count me in for the supplement!
Phil Istine
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
Hi Mike
Here's a little feedback from me on these things. The book is great, obviously. I only got my copy when the price dropped via Ugly Things. Why? Because to get it Europe at full price would have been £87. No one pays that much money for a book, unless very rich. I didn't like not buying it immediately, but I guessed the price would drop at some point. It's still the most expensive book I've bought. I was surprised you never got any distribution going on in Europe. $34 to ship can't be helping you.
I didn't realise how much trouble you'd gone to to add all the essays and extras that make it so much more than just a listings book. There's reams of it. You should really drill that part home - share some images of the pages to make people see it's not just listings information you can mostly get off the internet for free at a touch of a button. It's the same argument for buying music magazines as opposed to just visiting a few sites on the web. You get so much more from a mag/book than a website, but it needs to be clear to them what they are getting, and how much. Us Europeans mostly live in tiny spaces and every time we buy something physical its more "stuff" to put in our living space. It's no wonder so many people are happy to DL or stream or read things online. The new topic I'm noticing amongst friends revolves around "stuffication". I know I'm suffering badly from it. Second child on the way currently - more room needed!
Also on the printing cost side, you may have been better off saving print costs (and thus saving on weight to ship) by stopping at page 300. The index and photos are lovely, but not worth taking up a quarter of the book IMHO. I doubt I'll ever use the index, and a couple of colour page photos would have done the job. But I know you wanted to create something definitive and understand why you added them.
Ned
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Location
- Litchfield County
I hope nobody minds me hijacking this thread & getting it back on the road.
Volumes 3 & 4 are magnificent in both sound & selection. I for one like the inclusion of two great covers "Little Girl" & "Just Like Me" - two songs multiples of bands played out live. Deep bass, open midrange & just the right sound on the top end - they sound as close to the real deal as possible. There is no let up in quality from the previous volumes. Another great job by Mr. Warren and associates !
On the subject of the break even point on a release like this, never discount the difficulty in getting paid on time from a distributor. There is an old saying in the record business, and by old I mean dating back to the many R&B distributors following WWII, "you'll get paid for this release when I need your next release". I doubt much has changed. A hit record that went unpaid for was capable of killing a label in those days.
I agree with Mike in that the days of new comps creating excitement & selling at a brisk pace seem to be a thing of the past. Tim does this for the love of the music & to see that things are done correctly. He puts his heart & soul into these titles. It is sad to see the interest even amongst the "dedicated" is waning.
Ned
Volumes 3 & 4 are magnificent in both sound & selection. I for one like the inclusion of two great covers "Little Girl" & "Just Like Me" - two songs multiples of bands played out live. Deep bass, open midrange & just the right sound on the top end - they sound as close to the real deal as possible. There is no let up in quality from the previous volumes. Another great job by Mr. Warren and associates !
On the subject of the break even point on a release like this, never discount the difficulty in getting paid on time from a distributor. There is an old saying in the record business, and by old I mean dating back to the many R&B distributors following WWII, "you'll get paid for this release when I need your next release". I doubt much has changed. A hit record that went unpaid for was capable of killing a label in those days.
I agree with Mike in that the days of new comps creating excitement & selling at a brisk pace seem to be a thing of the past. Tim does this for the love of the music & to see that things are done correctly. He puts his heart & soul into these titles. It is sad to see the interest even amongst the "dedicated" is waning.
Ned
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