Repro 45 question

[chas_kit]

Would people be interested in a website that compared scans and info for originals and repros/boots/counterfeits? I've been thinking about doing this for two years now. I don't own a lot of repros, let alone all the originals they're taken from, so I'd need a lot of help and cooperation to get this done.

If enough people are willing to contribute high-quality scans and dead wax info for repros, I would build and maintain such a site.

 

[gregk25]

Chris, in a fast changing repro-landscape, an online reference site is the way to go, I believe. I am not sure what Mark has in mind in rg to the wiki part of the G45-site and I do not know how much work this would require, but wouldnt that be a good place for such a venture? To make it less prone to fraudulent alterations, one could enable only SecSoc-members to submit data and change entries. But probably this idea will only trigger another "dream on" comment...

 

[bosshoss]

I am not sure what Mark has in mind in rg to the wiki part of the G45-site

What I had in mind, is pretty much what you describe. But, the technical side of the existing "wiki" free software proved to be a bit too much for me, in my spare time. When I find a better, simple solution, which would allow G45 trusted members to contribute by uploading into a labelscan/info database, then I would be keen to implement it.

 

[bosshoss]

Would people be interested in a website that compared scans and info for originals and repros/boots/counterfeits? I've been thinking about doing this for two years now. I don't own a lot of repros, let alone all the originals they're taken from, so I'd need a lot of help and cooperation to get this done.

If enough people are willing to contribute high-quality scans and dead wax info for repros, I would build and maintain such a site.

I would contribute high quality scans of the originals. I don't have many repros, so someone else would have to assist with those scans.
I think it has got to the point where we really need something like this, to save huge and costly mistakes for the unwary (which could easily include me!)

 

[gregk25]

I would contribute high quality scans of the originals. I don't have many repros, so someone else would have to assist with those scans.
I think it has got to the point where we really need something like this, to save huge and costly mistakes for the unwary (which could easily include me!)

Gathering pics and data of the boots wouldnt be the hard part, I guess. But if you figure out a convenient way to integrate wiki software into the forum this would open up a whole bunch of new possibilities for this already great site and I'd be happy to help by any means I could.

 

[Ryan L.]

This could be useful.

I recently won an auction on eBay, and when I received the 45 and got a good look at the label I started to think that the ink didn't look "right". I immediately wondered if the record was a GG "reissue", but there doesn't seem to be a definitive resource listing them that I could check. As it turns out, I'm sending it back for a refund due to an unrelated issue. But the experience did make me think that a database could be invaluable.

I guess a series of images for each entry would be helpful in giving potential buyers a rough guide as to what a legit copy looks like, and what to look for to avoid buying bootlegs. It would also be good for sellers who want to maintain a good reputation and not sell dubious items. One potential drawback I can see is that it might be teaching the no-goodnik bootleggers how to better do their work. But I suppose that's unavoidable.

 

[MopTopMike]

My book has detailed info on how to determine most of the look-a-like boots, like Garage Greats.

 

[Ned]

When Mr. Mariano created his extensive run of rockabilly knockoffs in the mid 1970s, it was quite easy to recognize them when he simply included the year of his work in the deadwax. If you looked close you could see handwritted years like "1977" etched in by hand.

How can someone doing 45s to resemble the real thing distinguish it from the genuine article without taking away from the sensation intended ? Some small ID should be enough to indicate a replica besides the fact that todays vinly just doesn't feel or sound the same ,which should send someone off instanty.

Auction are another matter when you can't see or hold the piece in person. Time for the perspective buyer to ask questions & if they are not answered properly just stay away. There are junk dealers & horders everywhere that know next to nothing about what they are selling - we've all met some of them over the years. Ever buy records from professional house cleaners or someone like that - we all have ! With most crucial 45s priced the same as this months mortgage if I could locate a copy, the repro will be the closest way I'll ever get to the real McCoy on something like The Chob or The Zeros & it has been going on with R&B, vocal groups & rockabilly for well over 35 years.

I don't think the intent of those doing the recent flood of repro 45s is to fool anyone, I think they just want to share the feel & sensation of the music on its intended format. I do think there should be a unified way to recognize a repro from the genuine piece, but if you aren't sure don't buy it !

OK, off my soapbox now,
Ned

 

[Ryan L.]

How can someone doing 45s to resemble the real thing distinguish it from the genuine article without taking away from the sensation intended ? Some small ID should be enough to indicate a replica besides the fact that todays vinly just doesn't feel or sound the same ,which should send someone off instanty.

I agree. Something like the "1977" inscription would be prefect. "Repro" written in the deadwax seems obvious.

I don't think the intent of those doing the recent flood of repro 45s is to fool anyone, I think they just want to share the feel & sensation of the music on its intended format. I do think there should be a unified way to recognize a repro from the genuine piece, but if you aren't sure don't buy it !

Sage advice.

I do, however, still think that a web database would be a great resource.

That said, I'm looking forward to educating myself on what to look out for with the Teenbeat Mayhem book. I get nervous when bidding on anything approaching a hundred dollars, so I need to bone up! Also, are there any opinions on the Garage Records Price and Reference Guide? I was thinking of picking that up too.

 

[soundog III]

Of the recently issued repro's that I've acquired most all have either re-issue inscribed in the deadwax, noted on the label or have a different flip side from the original. Along with the fact that there is NO way I'd ever mistake these for vintage pressings, owing to the "feel" of the vinyl and the fact that the labels simply don't have a vintage look to them eliminates, for me at any rate, any question regarding whether the disc is an original or not.

 

[Heitkotter77]

How can someone doing 45s to resemble the real thing distinguish it from the genuine article without taking away from the sensation intended ? Some small ID should be enough to indicate a replica besides the fact that todays vinly just doesn't feel or sound the same ,which should send someone off instanty.

One way would be to do what Numbero just did with their Pretty repro. They used the original label, but replaced the original release number (SQ-1) with their own (701). It's a small enough detail that doesn't ruin the aura of the original label design while still producing a distinct and noticeable difference.
Of course, it doesn't mean that some assclown still won't try to sell one as an original, ignorantly or otherwise. Having a web database would help immensely to curtail that, or at least inform prospective buyers.

 

[bosshoss]

Also, are there any opinions on the Garage Records Price and Reference Guide? I was thinking of picking that up too.

It's definitely worth owning. But be careful about trusting the values within. There are definite and obvious biases. for example California 45s are generally realistically valued, whereas other states (TX for example) are often ludicrously undervalued. Some of the values for obscure discs and acetates are pure pot-shots, usually low-balled, unless owned by the authors

An example : These 4 records are each valued at $300 in the price guide :

Paragons - "Abba" (Bobbi, NC)
Nomads - "Time Remains" (J&S, MS)
Satori - "Time Machine" (Steffek, TX)
Butch Engle & The Showmen - "Tell Me Please" (MEA, CA)

The first 3 are ultra-rare and highly sought-after monsters of the genre, each easily worth over $1000 in mint condition, the 4th is cool, but not particularly in demand, and is worth...about $300

A price guide which gets it wrong by 3 or 4 times the proven real-world values over a ten year period, can't escape without serious criticism. It's not like the values are consistently off - they're all over the place. Still, it's a must for all collectors of the genre, even with its annoying faults. But it desperately needs a new, corrected edition.

 

[MopTopMike]

The problem I have with "repros" is that most of them are done with little respect to the music, or the legacy of the group. The recent spate of repros that do not note "reissue" on the labels, all from the same UK source, are done strictly to allow said individual the funds to buy rare original pressings for the purpose of future repros, and having the original to show-off at DJ gigs.
I';d like to see more of the classy, respectful reissues, like Mike Stax has just accomplished with the Bees 45 and pic sleeve.

 

[sonnyboypaco]

The problem I have with "repros" is that most of them are done with little respect to the music, or the legacy of the group. The recent spate of repros that do not note "reissue" on the labels, all from the same UK source, are done strictly to allow said individual the funds to buy rare original pressings for the purpose of future repros, and having the original to show-off at DJ gigs.
I';d like to see more of the classy, respectful reissues, like Mike Stax has just accomplished with the Bees 45 and pic sleeve.

I DO agree 100%.

 

[Ryan L.]

It's definitely worth owning. But be careful about trusting the values within. There are definite and obvious biases. for example California 45s are generally realistically valued, whereas other states (TX for example) are often ludicrously undervalued. Some of the values for obscure discs and acetates are pure pot-shots, usually low-balled, unless owned by the authors

An example : These 4 records are each valued at $300 in the price guide :

Paragons - "Abba" (Bobbi, NC)
Nomads - "Time Remains" (J&S, MS)
Satori - "Time Machine" (Steffek, TX)
Butch Engle & The Showmen - "Tell Me Please" (MEA, CA)

The first 3 are ultra-rare and highly sought-after monsters of the genre, each easily worth over $1000 in mint condition, the 4th is cool, but not particularly in demand, and is worth...about $300

A price guide which gets it wrong by 3 or 4 times the proven real-world values over a ten year period, can't escape without serious criticism. It's not like the values are consistently off - they're all over the place. Still, it's a must for all collectors of the genre, even with its annoying faults. But it desperately needs a new, corrected edition.

Ok, I definitely have to pick up that price guide. I'm realizing more and more that I need at least SOME idea going into a bidding situation. Of course, a resource like popsike.com also seems to be very good in a situation where I'm unsure of whether a starting bid on, say, eBay is reasonable. However, I recently bid on (and won) the "Bottle Up And Go" 45 by Mile Ends, but I couldn't find an entry on popsike.com for it. Eventually, I just went with my gut.

 

[Darren J Wallace]

Just how easy is it for someone to get a 45 re-pressed? Is such a project expensive? Not that I'm planning anything...I don't collect 45's specifically as I've mentioned many times. I just love the music,history,facts,gear,etc........My other hobbies and my mortgage do a great job of keeping me broke:).

 

[chas_kit]

http://brooklynphono.com/7pricing.html

http://www.urpressing.com/7inch.php

You're looking at $550 - $650 in set up costs, then about .55 to .65 cents per record including labels. About $1,000 for 500 copies in plain white sleeves.

And if you're particular about mastering and plating, that could cost more to have a specialist do either task.

This is why I haven't reissued any 45s yet.

 

[Darren J Wallace]

Wow....interesting!

 

[chas_kit]

Good list of current pressing plants:

http://www.totalsonic.net/vinylplants.htm

 

[Darren J Wallace]

I find all the photos of the record making process very interesting.Being a tool & die machinst and a millwright,it's fascinating for me to see how the manufacturing process takes place. I make a lot of molds for plastic injection molding so this is very cool to see the record making processes. I once made a mold to make guitar picks with our band name/moniker on them