I first heard this via MopTop Spins years ago & soon after got a copy in a job lot for $1.00 One copy sold for about $800 when the seller cleverly promoted it via a Fleetwood Mac fan forum. If you check popsike there have been other copies that didn't go for much. One seller in the UK wrote a big spiel to accompany his listing & it ended up going for about $30. I'm very disappointed in those Mac fans - I've been hoping to cash in on my copy but they don't seem to want to cooperate.
This 45 does not exist!!!
- Thread starter Frantic
- Start date
beccabear67
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Location
- Canada
Strange as I really like Rose Garden, Vejetables... October Country, Mojo Men, Peanut Butter Conspiracy... maybe I heard a warped copy of the record or something.
The best parts of Fleetwood Mac were Danny Kirwan, Peter Green and Christine McVie in my opinion (not that there is a thing wrong with the rhythm section though), but I understand there is a very fanatical Buckingham/Nicks drama fan club... I heard so much of those two in the '70s I'm as burned out as with the Eagles or disco period Bee Gees.
axel
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
There's a soundclip on the ebay site where it was sold. Maybe give it another try...? It sounds better every time I listen to it.
Btw, do you know that Newcastle Five 45 on Sundazed? It's great, if you like that kind of stuff.
axel
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
I found an interview with Javier Pacheco or rather it's people asking him questions. Seems like there are hundreds of them, obviously fans of Fleetwood Mac.
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/javierpacheco_qa1.htm
I don't know what the problem with the release of the "Sincerely, San Jose" 45 is, but in these interviews Pacheco answers with astonishing patience and openness. He doesn't come across like an asshole at all. On the contrary he seems to be quite the thoughtful type.
I'm not interested in Fleetwood Mac, but there are some nice recollections of the '60s music scene and things going on in the Bay Area.
An example:
"Hi Javier! First of all, I want to say thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions. It's been fascinating to read your answers. Now for my question. I'm a big fan of the Beatles. I was wondering if you got into their music at all, did it influence Fritz's sound, and did you or any of the other members of the band get to see their last show at Candlestick Park? (Ann, Gordonsville, TN, USA)"
"One would have to have been a zombie living in a closet not to have felt the influence of the Beatles, it was everywhere. Their music was everywhere, their pictures were everywhere. News stories devoted to their latest tour or current exploits kept people glued to the tube. I loved John Lennon’s wit, could relate to his irreverent spirit. He was my cultural hero of the time. His book A Spaniard in the Works also influenced me to write. McCartney was merely the pretty boy, but his singing (on “Yesterday” or “Michelle”) would also take me away. They were a tremendous influence, from the long hair to the leather boots, and types of music amps (I remember wishing I could own a Vox amplifier--loved the look). We grew up with the Beatles, followed their exploits, almost discovered life through the Beatles. I saw them at least twice on the top-rated 'Ed Sullivan Show', their US record sales eclipsed sales in the UK. Overnight, the group reached a level of popularity that even outshone their pre-eminence in Britain. By April, they held the first five places in the Billboard Hot 100, while in Canada they boasted nine records in the Top 10. Some of the songs I remember playing: I Should Have Known Better, Yesterday, Hide Your Love Away, Tell My Why, I’ll Cry Instead, Chains, Misery, You Won’t See Me, This Boy, It’s Only Love, Bad Boy, We Can Work It Out, You Can’t Do That, Think For Yourself, Paperback Writer, Lady Madonna, and Blackbird. I learned about Indian music through their interest in the sitar and the work of master Ravi Shankar. They were curious about Eastern philosophies. This spawned parallel interests among their many fans. I had mentioned earlier that the end of the Beatles also seemed to reinforce our own demise (in Fritz). By the way, David Forest was to us what Brian Epstein was to the Beatles, except that Forest did not fade away. I was playing in The Toads at the time. It was August, 1966. The owner of a music store in San Carlos asked us to play for one of his store anniversary celebrations. He set up a stage outside (off Laurel Street) and gave away free balloons. In exchange for our afternoon performance we were promised tickets to go to Candlestick Park for the last show of the Beatles’ national tour. No one imagined that it would be the last time they would ever play together again. (I still have my ticket!) Sponsored by KYA (Radio 1260) my ticket (worth $5.50) was for the lower stands (Section 10, Row 15, Seat 3), August 29, 1966. (This was a only few months before I was to join a group of M-A seniors in a combo to be known as the Fritz Rabyne Memorial Band.) There was excitement everywhere. If a helicopter happened to fly by, the stadium would erupt in thunderous screams. I remember being slightly disappointed at the time. From the moment they stepped onto the field (the stage was at second base) there was a constant cacophony of screaming, so loud that you could hardly hear anything else. And that’s how it was for the rest of the show. You could barely hear things like “Twist and Shout” and “Help!” It was frustrating--memorable, but frustrating. It was not a very long set and I remember that musically, they were tight, but didn’t exactly bowl me over. >From where I was sitting (out in the stands) only the constant yelling and screaming affected me. I was with other Toad members and we fought over a little pair of binoculars. Historically, I know the Beatles were ultimately very frustrated that they could not reproduce in live shows a lot of the magic from the recordings. At any rate, it was interesting to witness some of that intense Beatle hysteria."
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/javierpacheco_qa1.htm
I don't know what the problem with the release of the "Sincerely, San Jose" 45 is, but in these interviews Pacheco answers with astonishing patience and openness. He doesn't come across like an asshole at all. On the contrary he seems to be quite the thoughtful type.
I'm not interested in Fleetwood Mac, but there are some nice recollections of the '60s music scene and things going on in the Bay Area.
An example:
"Hi Javier! First of all, I want to say thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions. It's been fascinating to read your answers. Now for my question. I'm a big fan of the Beatles. I was wondering if you got into their music at all, did it influence Fritz's sound, and did you or any of the other members of the band get to see their last show at Candlestick Park? (Ann, Gordonsville, TN, USA)"
"One would have to have been a zombie living in a closet not to have felt the influence of the Beatles, it was everywhere. Their music was everywhere, their pictures were everywhere. News stories devoted to their latest tour or current exploits kept people glued to the tube. I loved John Lennon’s wit, could relate to his irreverent spirit. He was my cultural hero of the time. His book A Spaniard in the Works also influenced me to write. McCartney was merely the pretty boy, but his singing (on “Yesterday” or “Michelle”) would also take me away. They were a tremendous influence, from the long hair to the leather boots, and types of music amps (I remember wishing I could own a Vox amplifier--loved the look). We grew up with the Beatles, followed their exploits, almost discovered life through the Beatles. I saw them at least twice on the top-rated 'Ed Sullivan Show', their US record sales eclipsed sales in the UK. Overnight, the group reached a level of popularity that even outshone their pre-eminence in Britain. By April, they held the first five places in the Billboard Hot 100, while in Canada they boasted nine records in the Top 10. Some of the songs I remember playing: I Should Have Known Better, Yesterday, Hide Your Love Away, Tell My Why, I’ll Cry Instead, Chains, Misery, You Won’t See Me, This Boy, It’s Only Love, Bad Boy, We Can Work It Out, You Can’t Do That, Think For Yourself, Paperback Writer, Lady Madonna, and Blackbird. I learned about Indian music through their interest in the sitar and the work of master Ravi Shankar. They were curious about Eastern philosophies. This spawned parallel interests among their many fans. I had mentioned earlier that the end of the Beatles also seemed to reinforce our own demise (in Fritz). By the way, David Forest was to us what Brian Epstein was to the Beatles, except that Forest did not fade away. I was playing in The Toads at the time. It was August, 1966. The owner of a music store in San Carlos asked us to play for one of his store anniversary celebrations. He set up a stage outside (off Laurel Street) and gave away free balloons. In exchange for our afternoon performance we were promised tickets to go to Candlestick Park for the last show of the Beatles’ national tour. No one imagined that it would be the last time they would ever play together again. (I still have my ticket!) Sponsored by KYA (Radio 1260) my ticket (worth $5.50) was for the lower stands (Section 10, Row 15, Seat 3), August 29, 1966. (This was a only few months before I was to join a group of M-A seniors in a combo to be known as the Fritz Rabyne Memorial Band.) There was excitement everywhere. If a helicopter happened to fly by, the stadium would erupt in thunderous screams. I remember being slightly disappointed at the time. From the moment they stepped onto the field (the stage was at second base) there was a constant cacophony of screaming, so loud that you could hardly hear anything else. And that’s how it was for the rest of the show. You could barely hear things like “Twist and Shout” and “Help!” It was frustrating--memorable, but frustrating. It was not a very long set and I remember that musically, they were tight, but didn’t exactly bowl me over. >From where I was sitting (out in the stands) only the constant yelling and screaming affected me. I was with other Toad members and we fought over a little pair of binoculars. Historically, I know the Beatles were ultimately very frustrated that they could not reproduce in live shows a lot of the magic from the recordings. At any rate, it was interesting to witness some of that intense Beatle hysteria."
axel
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
And I tell you what: isn't there something quite dubious about this 45?
1. A bandname that the band didn't use?
2. A recording which everyone is talking about as "demo sessions"?
3. Finally: Burt Bacharach spelled as "Bacharock"?
Come on!
This might as well be what you call a bootleg nowadays. An illegal release. Is there anything else known about that label?
Mr.Pacheco probably didn't know about the release at the time and is quarreling with it since he found out. I have a certain understanding for that. Aren't you always talking about "royalties" for totally obscure songs of the sixties?
1. A bandname that the band didn't use?
2. A recording which everyone is talking about as "demo sessions"?
3. Finally: Burt Bacharach spelled as "Bacharock"?
Come on!
This might as well be what you call a bootleg nowadays. An illegal release. Is there anything else known about that label?
Mr.Pacheco probably didn't know about the release at the time and is quarreling with it since he found out. I have a certain understanding for that. Aren't you always talking about "royalties" for totally obscure songs of the sixties?
axel
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
And finally: I have the suspicion that this Mr.Pacheco was a rather talented songwriter (he wrote most of the Fritz' stuff and the band seems to have gotten quite good credits without ever getting a record deal) and never really had the chance to prove it to a greater audience. This certainly would suck.
Frantic
G45 Legend
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
Myself and others tried listing that 45 on Ebay 4 or 5 years ago and each time this guy had it yanked saying we were bootleggers and that we pressed them up ourselves. We tried to tell him that the 45 came out decades ago and he said it didn't. Maybe he finally realizes that it did come out in '68. He's even threatened suits against people for using photos of the band without his permission. MTM thought about using my FRITZ photo in his book for a second until he realized that wouldn't be wise. This guy is way too over-protective of a band that never quite made it.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Location
- The shores of southern CT
Oh, Lordy, here we go...another ill-reasoned Axel theory. This one can be dismantled quite easily. With facts that CAN'T BE FOUND on-line. I can hear Axel now: "What? Such details cannot be sourced on-line? How can such facts be valid, when today's world does all research by the on-line method? You mean people found facts prior to the internet era?"
I'm tired of people taking a stance on a subject for which they have no knowledge of, as well as merely accepting on-line comments as their source of proof to back up their argument. This is another example of simply buying into internet posted commentary as being "what really happened". Better than 50% of instances in my experience prove the person "who was there, man!" has a faulty memory of the events, or is making up an account based upon related experiences. Anyone like myself who has interviewed people who played rock & roll during the '60s as teenagers will have many examples of faulty memory syndrome.
How do YOU know, Axel, that the label is "a made up entity? Do YOU have proof? Mr. Pacheco's postings your only source of valid information? That and your ever doubting revisionist mindset?
Well, I have PROOF that shows otherwise. Not to mention (as posted in this thread) the Billboard Magazine on-line copy article documenting the fact the Karma label owner was still running the show in 1970.
I have 5 of the 6 45rpm releases on the Karma label. Do you? I think not.
The labels all look the same. They were pressed by the same manufacturing company during 1968-69. Said company is long out of business.
Plus, there is a full length LP on the label (The American Blues, who also have one of the 6 45s on the label. you do know who was in that group, I gather. People who later became as famous as Stevie and Lindsey).
There is a short review in a July, 1968 issue of Record World (13th, to be exact) listing the Sincerely, San Jose 45 as a regional breakout single. Karma Records is also listed in the trade industry magazines of the time as a registered record company, headed by Sam Coplin (again, as shown in the on-line Billboard Mag article from late 1970)
Mr. Pacheco has posted ad-infinitum on one specific Fleetwood Mac "ass-kissing" forum, that he is Mr. All-Knowing about his '60s group, and will not even consider the reasoned viewpoint of people, like myself, who can confirm specific details of which he (Pacheco) claims to have no knowledge of. He, like you, cites your above examples as to why the 45 is a later day made up bootleg, created specifically to rip off the efforts of Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham. Makes me wonder if the man is just plain EMBARRASED as to the quality of their music, as he soft peddles these demo recordings. Anytime a group went into a studio in the '60s it was usually with a goal of getting something out to the public.
Mr. Pacheco has long promised a release of Fritz tracks, but has never come through. It should not be hard to do, because he is still on a friendly basis with the ex-members of the band. And, it seems, according to copyright research I have undertaken, that he is the sole songwriter for original songs submitted for copyright. However, Javier did not submit the songs himself to the Library Of Congress for copyright, it was another person who lived in the Bay area. I've not been able to find that person, who could likely clear up the mystery that remains:
- 1 - How did these two songs end up with a Dallas based record label in 1968?
- 2 - Why the moniker shift to a name the band never used?
- 3- Why the incorrect credit for the remake of "What The World Needs Now"? (I think it was done as a joke)
What is TRUE - the Karma single is not a "bootleg" - It was released in 1968. Without the knowledge of the songwriter. Or, maybe, he DOES have knowledge of the whole deal, and is doing his damndest to hide / revise his own history. But, he is DEAD WRONG about the 45. Whether the band knew about it at the time, or not, IS a real, authentic pressing - the same deal as any obscure or hit single manufactured in 1968. And Mr. Pacheco will not listen or entertain these facts. He would rather have his lawyer pal make your life miserable whenever you try to sell the Sincerely San Jose 45 on line. The late Jeffrey Glenn found out about this when he found 2 copies and put them on-line circa 2002/3.
Joey is quite correct, I wanted to place a picture of Fritz in TeenBeat Mayhem. However, knowing the nature of Mr. Pacheco, I do not wish to publish the picture. He copyrighted a slew of Fritz photographs in his name back in 1998. In order to see if the photo that Joey obtained from a booking agent is among the pictures copyrighted by Mr. Pacheco, I would have to pay at LEAST a $200 fee charged by the Library Of Congress to examine the photos in person. Forget that! Just because someone else had provenance as the the source of an image, an outside party can legally copyright the material after the fact (long story there, not gonna go into it). Look at Getty Images. A whole cottage industry made by charging for clearances of images / photographs that they did not create!
depravedskippy66
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
Hopefully, MTM's post will now put this thread to rest as there's really nothing more that can, or needs to, be said.
Then again, maybe Mr. P will offer Axel a autographed photo for defending him
Frantic
G45 Legend
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
there's no talking to this dope. He may sound nice in his little blog but to deal with him is not cool. Maybe the Ax Man can talk some sense into him.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Location
- The shores of southern CT
The accepted view by the Mac brigade is that the Sincerely, San Jose 45 is a worthless, modern day bootleg. and therefore not worth any monetary value. you'll never find anyone paying big for the single who is an all things Mac and related collector. The ass-kissing Mac brigade would rather genuflect at the postings of Mr. P. and wait with baited breath for his official "authorized" issue of Frtiz material.
Frantic
G45 Legend
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
In the beloved digital download format no-less:p
beccabear67
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Location
- Canada
Wow, a lot of drama for such a little 45 record that doesn't even exist! The rip of the song I have isn't very good apparently going by the clip on the auction, probably a tape of a tape of a tape. But then again I got it from someone who posts a ton on that particular fan site, (gasp), could it have been sabotaged? 
Maybe it's some kind of Buckingham-Nicks drama curse as I know literally thousands of illegal bootleg CD-Rs of their one Polydor album were hawked on eBay and other places while they sat on properly licensing anything to anybody anywhere (and were approached numerous times). Possibly some substances went beyond eating holes in their sinuses and headed north? At least Christine finally allowed her solo band stuff out with great unreleased tracks, some relatable real-life experience lyrics, and Top Topham guitar.
Maybe it's some kind of Buckingham-Nicks drama curse as I know literally thousands of illegal bootleg CD-Rs of their one Polydor album were hawked on eBay and other places while they sat on properly licensing anything to anybody anywhere (and were approached numerous times). Possibly some substances went beyond eating holes in their sinuses and headed north? At least Christine finally allowed her solo band stuff out with great unreleased tracks, some relatable real-life experience lyrics, and Top Topham guitar.
Perkeo
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2011
So, best case scenario for this guy is that he eventually gets to license the unreleased tracks for some insane Fleetwood Mac 50 CD box or something...I could see that being worth a couple of bucks but not exactly a ton. Sundazed or whatever other label you'd care to name probably couldn't offer that much. Still, some jackass' "pride" will keep us from hearing some possibly (good-great) unreleased stuff. Sad :[....are they completely unaware that I am ENTITLED to hear this stuff ').....???
axel
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
A lot of words for not even answering my two simple questions:
1. Can't it be that this 45 is an illegal release?
2. Is there any other material by the Fritz?
I never assumed that the Karma label wasn't an operating label in 1968. But that doesn't mean that this particular release was legal. I was just putting one and one together. Common sense. Actually you are still asking the same questions concerning the bandname etc.
Here's an assumption that I do have to make: you don't read properly what I'm saying, because you think I'm an idiot. I don't care if you think I'm an idiot. But please read properly what I'm actually saying. Then you could save some adrenaline and pomposity for more important undertakings.
To answer your question if I own any other of the Karma releases, in short: no.
