BEACH BOYS Smile cd box on sale for one hour only

[captainsalty]

there might be "dogma-issues", but i believe this point of view limits things.

axel, you mentioned "freedom of form", lee sees it as a "continuation". i will make it short here: to me, smile has nothing to do with freedom. it's a clinically sterile, bloodless stillbirth, forced out of its mother's dead womb by a mentally ill man suffering from an adolescense crisis, executed by a bunch of professional musicians, driven forward by a greedy company's will to sell product.

in mid-1967 wilson couldn't take it and probably was highly bored with the material himself. (remember what i said about the sloppy/missing songwriting) then he just let it be and junked it, until his bandmates pulled things out again. and the myth grew. hello 2011!

continuation: hell yes, but not the beach boys. mark already mentioned the beatles. while no big beatles fan, they really aged well and then blew up. that's fine.

side note: there are 1960s relics that still can do it. stones, bob d., a lot of the old garage bands,...

(i know this all is just dogmatic hum-dum, but anyway...)

-Lee

 

[bosshoss]

I disagree. "Psychedelic Sounds", the first Velvet Underground and a heap of other stuff had nothing to do with the Beatles. Especially the weirder stuff. As John Lennon once pointed out: they were not the captains, they were just sitting in the crow's nest.

I did say "a lot of it", not "all of it".
but even so...

"Psychedelic Sounds" was influenced directly by British Invasion sounds. Which means an underlying Beatles influence is inherently there. I'm thinking particularly of "Tried To Hide" which is a close re-write of the Kinks "Come On Now", which in turn bears a resemblance to The Beatles "I Feel Fine" released earlier the same year.

Lou Reed was aware enough of the Beatles to attempt to set up a managerial link for The Velvet Underground with Brian Epstein. Not influenced by The Beatles, but definitely aware.

The subject matter of this thread, ie Beach Boys Smile/Pet Sounds, is perhaps the most perfect and well documented example of the pressure felt by other '60s artists to keep pace with the Beatles.

 

[mansson66]

Don't get me wrong. I think the Beatles are as good as, say, the American Breed. They did a few really good songs. Maybe 3% of their output can be measured to what The Remains did when they let out a fart.

 

[bosshoss]

Funny you should mention The Remains. Barry Tashian stated The Remains broke up directly as a result of the band feeling that they could never compete with The Beatles.

"I became very discouraged, realizing that The Remains would never be as great as The Beatles"
(Barry Tashian, "Ticket To Ride")

 

[Andreas]

I never liked the Beatles (more than any other 60s band - I DO like a hard days night LP and everything else that came out before Revolver... but after that it's just overrated crap IMO. I hate Sgt Pooper. HATE. And don't get me going on The Dogshit Album)
This was not what I wanted to write. I'm trying to remember right now. I've listened to Pet Sounds on acid and it's one of my most religious experiences I've ever had. I do believe that Smile sucks. I don't like Ike & Tina. I still have never listened to Dylan. Do I care? Obviously not. Anyway...

Well, this is my problem with a lot of this "Smile"-bashing. People who focus on the hype instead of the actual music. If you don't like it, fine, but don't dislike anything just because of how it is presented by media journalists, popular culture etc. Why the urge to mention that you don't like the Beatles and Bob Dylan? It reeks of a desire to speak against the consensus, which I can understand but there's always a risk that you'll just end up as a guy who wants to be the opposite of the general attitude towards these things. That means that you're not judging these things in relation to what they are (something that is impossible anyway, I don't believe there's such a thing as obejctivity).There's a lot of stuff that I've never listened to but I don't boast about it or anything like that. I can understand why these kinds of hypes are sickening but they were hardly started by the artists themselves, so why should they be victims of it?

"Do you care"? Well, obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it at all. Surely it must be a part of your identity and way of presenting yourself.

This is not to pick on you, Måns, just using your quote as a way of getting my opinion across. Not sure it really comes through, though...

 

[EXPO67]

Don't get me wrong. I think the Beatles are as good as, say, the American Breed. They did a few really good songs. Maybe 3% of their output can be measured to what The Remains did when they let out a fart.

Dear oh dear? Surely one of the most stupidist things you've ever said.

 

[mansson66]

I prefer saying/writing stupid things before being quiet. And I DO think the Beatles are the most overrated band ever. It doesn't mean I think they're bad. But they are as good as say The Queen. Important ,for someone. Good, for someone. But I get my kicks elsewhere.
I also agree a lot with the post Axel wrote. It makes a lot of sense. BUT I've tried to listen to the Smile sessions for years and I didn't like it. What can I do?

 

[Dominic]

I prefer saying/writing stupid things before being quiet.

That is insane.

...I've tried to listen to the Smile sessions for years and I didn't like it. What can I do?

I guess listen to your Back From The Grave LPs again.

 

[Westex]

I can state with complete certainty that I've never heard Smile. I do dig the Beach Boys, but at the same time I'm kinda "meh" since at first glance it's all about surfboards and sand. Based on what has been written above it appears I need to give the group more time.

I can't quite wrap my mind around Mans's statement putting the American Breed on the same level as the Beatles... or did I misunderstand that?

 

[Frantic]

Don't get me wrong. I think the Beatles are as good as, say, the American Breed.

WHAT THE HELL???

 

[howlin' hoosier]

Perhaps we should work the Beach Boys/American Breed angle in more depth; keep those pesky Beatles out of the conversation.

 

[beccabear67]

I wouldn't say Sgt. Pepper is a bad album but it's an overrated Beatles album, and it was a bad influence on some other artists in my opinion (or Pet Sounds was a bad influence on the Beatles?). I do however like Blue Jay Way and Flying so it's not all downhill from 1966.

The Beach Boys were even less of an album group than the Beatles; I think Smiley Smile is no worse than what would have been Smile, most 'high concept' albums are part music and part hoo-hah, it's the hoo-hah that wears out it's welcome. I don't have a copy of Tommy or Quadrophenia, and if they reconstruct Lifehouse I will likely pass on it too and just cherry-pick whatever single songs I don't have otherwise from it. About the best 'concept' album I can relate to is The Beatles White Album as a tour through the history of music by a fragmenting group, and the lack of visuals lends it a sort of Art gallery frame, maybe even an exhibition catalog. If the life is a bit pressed out of it that fits with the whole and the members. Not that I listen to much from it too often, and it's influence again on others has been a bit negative perhaps. I think The Beatles should have broken up after it. Maybe the Beach Boys could have ended at Pet Sounds which was a commercial flop at the time I understand. Yeah, then Carl, Dennis, and David Marks could have started their own rock group, Mike and Al would've joined The Association or somebody like that, Bruce would have ended up in The Eagles or something, and Brian and Van Dyke would've continued writing music and/or lyrics for whoever wanted them.

This Smile box is just a huge money grab really, alternate takes and outtakes are a bore as often as not anyway, so one discs worth of it should be plenty, and that's about what I have for this and Pet Sounds and most of the Beatles albums thanks to the 'Alternate' bootleg series.

 

[Rich Strauss]

The pressure to compete with, or even just keep up with with the Beatles in the '60s explains a lot of it.

The subject of this thread, Brian Wilson, has said exactly that. The fact that both groups were on the same label in the U. S. made it even worse according to Brian.

-- Rich

 

[eargasm!]

I purchased the Smile Box Set and have had a wonderful time listening to the process of the recording of this potentially brilliant piece of music...it certainly isn't for everyone to own the entire box, but anyone who enjoys music enough to be part of this forum owes it to themselves to at least check out the single disc set of the finished (somewhat) product..as far as The Beatles thing that's going on, at this stage of the game anyone who dismisses them as crap should just be ignored .

 

[axel]

I did say "a lot of it", not "all of it".
but even so...

"Psychedelic Sounds" was influenced directly by British Invasion sounds. Which means an underlying Beatles influence is inherently there. I'm thinking particularly of "Tried To Hide" which is a close re-write of the Kinks "Come On Now", which in turn bears a resemblance to The Beatles "I Feel Fine" released earlier the same year.
Lou Reed was aware enough of the Beatles to attempt to set up a managerial link for The Velvet Underground with Brian Epstein. Not influenced by The Beatles, but definitely aware.
The subject matter of this thread, ie Beach Boys Smile/Pet Sounds, is perhaps the most perfect and well documented example of the pressure felt by other '60s artists to keep pace with the Beatles.

Sorry, Mark, that was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought you were referring to my statement about 1966. That's why I said a lot was not influenced by the Beatles. Meaning that what happened in 1966 was not a direct result of Revolver.
Of course all of those groups were influenced by the British Invasion. And without the Beatles it all would probably not have happened in the first place.

The thought that the Beatles set a standard for quality that somewhat directed the Sixties is actually new to me, but it makes total sense (even if some might think that the American Breed set an equally high standard ). And the thought that the standard fell as soon as the Beatles didn't keep it themselves (or disintegrated), is even more thought-provoking. Sorry, I didn't get that at first glance.
(Btw, it might be useful if the quotations wouldn't be italic, for better readability. It's important to read the quote, to really get what someone is actually referring to.)

Of course Brian Wilson was totally into competing with the Beatles. The interesting thing is that he never tried to fight them on their own grounds. `Pet Sounds´ was an answer to `Rubber Soul´. But whereas the Beatles became even minimalistic in a certain sense (instrumentation, chord-structure), Brian went back to an almost Spectorian approach and mixed it with some J.S. Bach´s art of fugue. Almost the opposite direction. But mainly, of course, he always kept listening to his inner voice...

 

[Mr.Segment]

But mainly, of course, he always kept listening to his inner voice...

Which, unfortunately for Brian, turned out to be completely bonkers.

I am a fan, obsessing at one point over Pet Sounds in particular, but must admit I've burnt out quite a bit on it. Shame to say I don't own an original vinyl pressing of this. Actually think I'm going to pick one up as a result of this topic.

 

[axel]

I can state with complete certainty that I've never heard Smile. I do dig the Beach Boys, but at the same time I'm kinda "meh" since at first glance it's all about surfboards and sand. Based on what has been written above it appears I need to give the group more time.

This might be an interesting angle to get into them:

 

[axel]

Which, unfortunately for Brian, turned out to be completely bonkers.

In one of those vids (10 parts) the band members are talking about why the project was cancelled, and everybody says it was too much of a burden for Brian.
Only Brian, he says: "You know, it was the drugs. We were stoned. Okay, first of all it was the drugs. Then it was... the drugs. And then... drugs."
It isn't really funny, but the way he says it is extremely funny.

 

[axel]

Don't get me wrong. I think the Beatles are as good as, say, the American Breed. They did a few really good songs. Maybe 3% of their output can be measured to what The Remains did when they let out a fart.

I know what you mean. I know quite a few people, with otherwise good taste, who make a point of ignoring the Beatles. It's mostly people who already developed their own taste before having a chance to get into the Beatles. And when they got the chance they thought they´re too common sense.
The comparison to the American Breed is so absurd, it's actually quite funny. You shouldn't have tried to top that with Queen. That's just plainly insulting.
I understand what you're saying about the Remains. Although you're simply ignoring the fact that hardly any other US band is so directly influenced by the Beatles. But they have more punch. They do the same thing but more edgy. When I listened to the Beatles recently I also wished they had a little more punch and edge. But, well, what can you do?

Anyway, get rid of that hatred against the Beatles. It makes no sense. I don't think you'll ever again have the chance and pleasure of a teenager getting into the Beatles, which you obviously missed, but make your peace with them.

Here's a little story for you: The Remains went on tour with the Beatles in 1966. Barry Tashian wrote a diary and published it (including a lot of other sources) called "Ticket too ride" (Mark quoted from it). I think I'll just write this directly from the book, because I love that story so much:

"Tonight, I took my girlfriend, Valerie, over to meet The Beatles in the Hotel Warwick. (...) It was like going to visit royalty, and I felt privileged to escort her through the crowd of fans at the entrance, past the security guards, and on up to the Beatles' suite. As it turned out, John was the only Beatle we saw that evening.
For a while we stayed in the living room, socializing with John, Alfie, and some girls. (...)
After about an hour of small talk, we went into one of the bedrooms to play the Tim Hardin 1 album I brought along. I thought John would like to hear "Reason To Believe", "Hang On To A Dream" and "Misty Roses".
We sat on the floor by a small record player. John asked Alfie to find Brian Epstein. Brian appeared almost immediately, dapper as usual. From his jacket pocket, he produced a gold cigarette case, opened it up and handed John a pre-rolled, filter-tipped joint. I've never seen such a perfectly rolled joint.
We played the record and listened closely, commenting between the cuts. It was interesting to listen to an album with John Lennon. I heard it with new ears. Lennon really liked Tim Hardin's writing and the simplicity of production. I wish I could´ve given him a Remains album, but it won't be out until the tour's over.
John told us he enjoyed the evening. He courteously thanked us for coming to visit and for bringing the album, which I left with him."

Can you tell how much of a FAN Barry was? I can't believe that he actually carried a record with him, through the crowds, to play it to the Beatles. And THAT record...

 

[mansson66]

WHAT THE HELL???

I'm kidding. It was a joke. But I know... it doesn't really work as written words
And Dominic - no I'm not insane. This is a nerdy forum focused on music. What I think about this or that artist isn't important at all