chas_kit
G45 Legend
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Location
- Hudson Valley, NY
Horrible to read about the attacks on Oslo & Utøya. That's one sick mind who can shoot teenagers in cold blood.
Condolences to our Norweigian members
- Thread starter chas_kit
- Start date
Perkeo
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2011
Hard to believe that this happened in the land of the Dandy Girls...eh what am I saying, hard to believe such a horrible event could happen anywhere. Condolences indeed. I'd be interested to hear from our Norwegian members about the usual maximum sentence there of 21 years (ala Varg Vikernes)...surely an exception can be made in a case as egregious as this?
Mr.Segment
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
- Location
- Oslo
Thanks guys, it's really quite unreal. I was supposed to have been in a meeting just a few hundered meters away, starting just as the bomb exploded, but I had to cancel a few hours before due to a heavy workload.
The Utøya killings are insane. Executing kids with shots to the head in the fight against multiculturalism? Sitting ducks really, as we live in a country where the police is not armed unless called for & political meetings is not necessarrily/normally under surveilance.
With regards to maximum penalty, we have something called containment which, if used in full effect, could mean life imprisonment. But you are under regular evaluation and could be released if you are no longer deemed a threat to society. Like Varg Vikernes. The f*cking nutcase. Still a right-wing idiot, free as the bird, but probably under control as he is so well known.
On the other hand, no Norwegian since the 2nd WW have ever done something even close to this. Who knows what will happen.
The Utøya killings are insane. Executing kids with shots to the head in the fight against multiculturalism? Sitting ducks really, as we live in a country where the police is not armed unless called for & political meetings is not necessarrily/normally under surveilance.
With regards to maximum penalty, we have something called containment which, if used in full effect, could mean life imprisonment. But you are under regular evaluation and could be released if you are no longer deemed a threat to society. Like Varg Vikernes. The f*cking nutcase. Still a right-wing idiot, free as the bird, but probably under control as he is so well known.
On the other hand, no Norwegian since the 2nd WW have ever done something even close to this. Who knows what will happen.
Perkeo
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2011
What's weird is, this guy has been characterized as wanting to start a christian crusade against Islam and multiculturalism, but on the other hand the Black Metal hordes see themselves as trying to bring back Norse pagan cultural traditions straight out of the Poetic Edda - that really puts your poor country between some pretty crazy extremes...of course in the end, nuts is just plain nuts
...
...
rev.sideburn
Mark VII Class
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2011
- Location
- Oslo
It´s been some surrealistic days and nights indeed.
The ones who´ve been in Norway and/or in Oslo probably understand the size of our tiny small country and community. 5 mill citizens in totall, 600.000 in Oslo, of course this affects us all a lot. Me and my family lives just 12-1300 meters (!) from the bomb-explosion. Me and my oldest son rested on the couch at the time (luckily, two hours; before we were close to the same area.....) when the bomb exploded. Run out on the balcony within 10 secs and understood immediately something was really really bad. Called my employee and said; "get the hell to there". My girlfriend and youngest son, I knew they were loooong way out of town at the time, what a relief
Right know I´m really tired and exhausted. Got a babysitter, and went to work 1 half hour after the bomb attack. (At the moment, I work as picture editor at one of the leading papers in Norway) Needless to say, 29 hours in row 24/7 +++++ after, I feel it physically, I do, supposed to started my daddy leave past weekend.
I´ll probably come back with more, but this article inspires, and really catch up early in progress, some of the "Norwegian Spirit", and probably why we survive psychological and as a true democratic nation
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html
some more
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html
and
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/201172412744740495.html
and for you guys belive all writings and comments from (tasteless) people like Kevin B. MacDonald, Glenn Beck or Alex Jones, maybe you should look somewhere else or just read and try to become more openminded. Some (=lot) of the comments at leading US newscasters explains and try make the blame somewhere else. Wrong!!
Sorry, this time a sad meaningless christian conservative blonde norwegian (how to explain that?) stood out and made the face of a killer.
Must say after the past day gatherings and memorials around Norway. I rarely get emotionally touched, tonight I am, and a bit proud must say. I still believe in open democracy
In remembrance of all innocent people who lost their lives, and to their relatives and friends.
Yours
-Frank
The ones who´ve been in Norway and/or in Oslo probably understand the size of our tiny small country and community. 5 mill citizens in totall, 600.000 in Oslo, of course this affects us all a lot. Me and my family lives just 12-1300 meters (!) from the bomb-explosion. Me and my oldest son rested on the couch at the time (luckily, two hours; before we were close to the same area.....) when the bomb exploded. Run out on the balcony within 10 secs and understood immediately something was really really bad. Called my employee and said; "get the hell to there". My girlfriend and youngest son, I knew they were loooong way out of town at the time, what a relief
Right know I´m really tired and exhausted. Got a babysitter, and went to work 1 half hour after the bomb attack. (At the moment, I work as picture editor at one of the leading papers in Norway) Needless to say, 29 hours in row 24/7 +++++ after, I feel it physically, I do, supposed to started my daddy leave past weekend.
I´ll probably come back with more, but this article inspires, and really catch up early in progress, some of the "Norwegian Spirit", and probably why we survive psychological and as a true democratic nation
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html
some more
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html
and
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/201172412744740495.html
and for you guys belive all writings and comments from (tasteless) people like Kevin B. MacDonald, Glenn Beck or Alex Jones, maybe you should look somewhere else or just read and try to become more openminded. Some (=lot) of the comments at leading US newscasters explains and try make the blame somewhere else. Wrong!!
Sorry, this time a sad meaningless christian conservative blonde norwegian (how to explain that?) stood out and made the face of a killer.
Must say after the past day gatherings and memorials around Norway. I rarely get emotionally touched, tonight I am, and a bit proud must say. I still believe in open democracy
In remembrance of all innocent people who lost their lives, and to their relatives and friends.
Yours
-Frank
beccabear67
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Location
- Canada
I don't know if people like that are understandable at any level other than at best 'simple minds seek simple solutions'? I have tuned the media out on this not expecting them to have anything useful to say, so I don't really know the people you named other than I have heard of Glen Beck (on some channel we don't get). The Oklahoma City bomb guy was also white etc. etc., I guess we all are responsible for doing what we can to discourage violence and the cycle of violence, and yet can't help feeling they should just pop that guy in the head and toss him in the ground! Other than that does anyone talk about gun control? I didn't think of Norway as a having a lot of guns around, although former Norwegians I knew in Alaska of course had some guns around. One solution is to have more people armed and another is to have more people disarmed. Maybe somebody will want to limit sales of fertilizer. Ultimately there must be something wrong to pretend to fix because people don't want to think of life as meaningless and sometimes extremely cruel.
I have no idea what it feels like to have a loved one murdered like the people in Norway do, I hope I never find out of course. With the media light shined on world events I think it does happen less often than at other times in history.
I have no idea what it feels like to have a loved one murdered like the people in Norway do, I hope I never find out of course. With the media light shined on world events I think it does happen less often than at other times in history.
axel
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
This is terrible beyond compare. But, if only for one single reason, it is not totally meaningless.
This is not the wake-up call the killer intended. I don't think it will cause more chauvinism/ nationalism/ racism, but on the contrary a lot of moderate chauvinists/ nationalists/ racists will step back thinking: Shit, this is not what we want. And probably/hopefully understand that they have a lot more in common with the Islamic shopkeeper next door than with a fanatic like that.
Chauvinism ultimately leads to killing people. That's a fact.
The young people who died were not random victims. They were chosen for their political beliefs. That is why they died. They should be honored as heros for the humanist cause.
This is not the wake-up call the killer intended. I don't think it will cause more chauvinism/ nationalism/ racism, but on the contrary a lot of moderate chauvinists/ nationalists/ racists will step back thinking: Shit, this is not what we want. And probably/hopefully understand that they have a lot more in common with the Islamic shopkeeper next door than with a fanatic like that.
Chauvinism ultimately leads to killing people. That's a fact.
The young people who died were not random victims. They were chosen for their political beliefs. That is why they died. They should be honored as heros for the humanist cause.
ian
Mark VII Class
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2011
- Location
- berlin, germany
i'd rather stay at the office than go to a social democrat holiday camp, or any politically oriented workshop.
Mr.Segment
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
- Location
- Oslo
Different strokes for different folks.
As for the legality of the fertilizer used: EU/EEC have restrictions for sale. I do not know the specifics, but average Joe can't just pop in and buy 6 tons. Norway is about to implement this as we are committed through the EEA agreement, but since the looney had registered an ecological farming company just to be able to buy the fertilizer without causing suspicion, I doubt it would have helped.
As for the legality of the fertilizer used: EU/EEC have restrictions for sale. I do not know the specifics, but average Joe can't just pop in and buy 6 tons. Norway is about to implement this as we are committed through the EEA agreement, but since the looney had registered an ecological farming company just to be able to buy the fertilizer without causing suspicion, I doubt it would have helped.
rev.sideburn
Mark VII Class
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2011
- Location
- Oslo
3 tons were harmless fertilizers, just for a coverup.
beccabear67
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Location
- Canada
I could write a lot of things about liberal immigration policies but it seems like an extremely bad time to try. Really the only immigration problems are not with someone genuinely wanting a better life and who has some 'exotic' customs and such, but with people coming in from lawless war-torn places who either have bad intentions from the start or resort more easily to violence and crime due to their background than other immigrants, and to a lesser degree there is a problem with politicians who exploit voter blocks of immigrants. At some point we western democracies have got to be upfront about what is actually going on without the muzzle of politically correct terms created to obfuscate and yet without the name-calling either. What I mean is that we will have to discriminate against certain countries of origin if we don't already, it's common sense to. Just as doing body cavity searches of some ill elderly lady in a walker at the airport is wrong, so to is not identifying certain countries of origin as needing greater scrutiny.
In Canada we have serious problems almost entirely with people from a very few countries, and this has nothing to do with the peoples' social customs. Pakistan is the main problem country of origin where I live. An Air India flight was blown up by people in western Canada from Pakistan which killed a lot of innocent people and baggage handlers in Japan, and the Pakistani community has gone from being referred to first as Indo-Canadians (even though they preach hate and violence about India) to now South Asians, and so we aren't to say we have a problem with people from Pakistan? Our elected politicians have been warned not to come to areas of Vancouver during Pakistani street parades with the images of people involved in the Air India bombing on floats, and yet it was recently revealed that the current leaders of the two major parties in the province of British Columbia owed major numbers of votes to the same Pakistani community voters who technically should not be members of both parties according to their party constitutions. In a flagrant abuse of position Pakistani longshoreman dock workers suspected of being involved in the drug trade gave out false information of job opportunities at the docks to non-Pakistanis while giving the correct information to their friends and relatives who were then successful in getting the positions. Canadian taxpayers spend a lot of money to help all new immigrants to find employment and learn french and english. This kind of information is politically incorrect to publish or broadcast but these things are really happening and are what does the most to create racists. There have also been problems with people coming in from Vietnam and central America which is also not to be talked of. Yet maybe we can fix these things and work with well meaning immigrants to do it in a way that is sensible if we do talk about it, and maybe defuse a platform for idiots like the murderer in Norway. Having small Humanist martyrs in some kind of race war does not seem like a good idea at all! Honoring war dead almost always seems to lead to more heroes, nothing glorious in it to me.
I know Holland and Germany have been having many real problems with recent immigrants from the middle east that are not racist peoples' imaginings. Let's admit that the problems are real instead of invoking the horrors of the third reich and the holocaust at the drop of a hat! We must address reality in order that fanatics do not use the cloud of misdirection and confusion to wreck havoc. There are many good people who have come to Canada and Europe and who do make important contributions to our societies, but in some cases they are being victimized and marginalized by the same people causing trouble with their adopted countries. Can we really learn from these extreme headline making situations? I've become pessimistic, but I still want to try. You are not going to see racist fanatical groups disappear by continuing down a path of mindlessly indiscriminate multiculturalism as 'us' good and 'them' simplistically evil and I think we know this deep down. Taking the easy path of not talking about certain things but following the moral high ground crowd in order to be on a winning side means to me that we all lose. It's the same 'sin' as Rush Limbaugh's half truths really, and I saw through that guy ages ago with his anti-environmentalist joke about there being more trees in the U.S. now than when the country was founded (think about that for a moment and you should have the key to the whole phony neo-con movement which gave the world Bush/Cheney for eight years). Getting your information from a source that only gives half the truth is a big problem these days, and making decisions based on two extremes' half truths often does not add up to balance.
I know this is a place to talk about music and apologize if this offends anyone's sensibilities. While this may be a bad time to talk about this stuff, I found in life there is often never a good time either. I have too much time on my hands, it's true...
In Canada we have serious problems almost entirely with people from a very few countries, and this has nothing to do with the peoples' social customs. Pakistan is the main problem country of origin where I live. An Air India flight was blown up by people in western Canada from Pakistan which killed a lot of innocent people and baggage handlers in Japan, and the Pakistani community has gone from being referred to first as Indo-Canadians (even though they preach hate and violence about India) to now South Asians, and so we aren't to say we have a problem with people from Pakistan? Our elected politicians have been warned not to come to areas of Vancouver during Pakistani street parades with the images of people involved in the Air India bombing on floats, and yet it was recently revealed that the current leaders of the two major parties in the province of British Columbia owed major numbers of votes to the same Pakistani community voters who technically should not be members of both parties according to their party constitutions. In a flagrant abuse of position Pakistani longshoreman dock workers suspected of being involved in the drug trade gave out false information of job opportunities at the docks to non-Pakistanis while giving the correct information to their friends and relatives who were then successful in getting the positions. Canadian taxpayers spend a lot of money to help all new immigrants to find employment and learn french and english. This kind of information is politically incorrect to publish or broadcast but these things are really happening and are what does the most to create racists. There have also been problems with people coming in from Vietnam and central America which is also not to be talked of. Yet maybe we can fix these things and work with well meaning immigrants to do it in a way that is sensible if we do talk about it, and maybe defuse a platform for idiots like the murderer in Norway. Having small Humanist martyrs in some kind of race war does not seem like a good idea at all! Honoring war dead almost always seems to lead to more heroes, nothing glorious in it to me.
I know Holland and Germany have been having many real problems with recent immigrants from the middle east that are not racist peoples' imaginings. Let's admit that the problems are real instead of invoking the horrors of the third reich and the holocaust at the drop of a hat! We must address reality in order that fanatics do not use the cloud of misdirection and confusion to wreck havoc. There are many good people who have come to Canada and Europe and who do make important contributions to our societies, but in some cases they are being victimized and marginalized by the same people causing trouble with their adopted countries. Can we really learn from these extreme headline making situations? I've become pessimistic, but I still want to try. You are not going to see racist fanatical groups disappear by continuing down a path of mindlessly indiscriminate multiculturalism as 'us' good and 'them' simplistically evil and I think we know this deep down. Taking the easy path of not talking about certain things but following the moral high ground crowd in order to be on a winning side means to me that we all lose. It's the same 'sin' as Rush Limbaugh's half truths really, and I saw through that guy ages ago with his anti-environmentalist joke about there being more trees in the U.S. now than when the country was founded (think about that for a moment and you should have the key to the whole phony neo-con movement which gave the world Bush/Cheney for eight years). Getting your information from a source that only gives half the truth is a big problem these days, and making decisions based on two extremes' half truths often does not add up to balance.
I know this is a place to talk about music and apologize if this offends anyone's sensibilities. While this may be a bad time to talk about this stuff, I found in life there is often never a good time either. I have too much time on my hands, it's true...
Dave Baldwin
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Location
- Deep Texas
Unfortunate that the laws of Norway do not allow the punishment to fit the crime in this case. However, I'd personally never rely on Aljazeera for the fair reporting of any news event in the West...especially one that can be spun to tar "Christians" (your scumbag shooter may have been many things, but a Christian was not one of them). This ass-clown was about as "religious" as the freakin' Unibomber.
rev.sideburn
Mark VII Class
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2011
- Location
- Oslo
Well, he´ll practically get a lifetime sentence, and death sentence wound up in 1979 (last executed was in 1948). There´s also a new law that might be used this time, enemy of humanity.
I think this is my last post in this thread. I know from the old forum, there´s a (huge) gap between Europe and USA when it comes to discussion about politics and religion. The whole thing can get uncomfortably and unnecessary. I´m here for the love of garage 45s
He left behind a more than 1500 page online manifesto called 2083, pretty disturbing stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik
The guy was a Freemason and considered himself as a Christian Knight.
I´ll leave it there.
all best
Frank
I think this is my last post in this thread. I know from the old forum, there´s a (huge) gap between Europe and USA when it comes to discussion about politics and religion. The whole thing can get uncomfortably and unnecessary. I´m here for the love of garage 45s
He left behind a more than 1500 page online manifesto called 2083, pretty disturbing stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik
The guy was a Freemason and considered himself as a Christian Knight.
I´ll leave it there.
all best
Frank
beccabear67
Ikon Class
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Location
- Canada
I always wonder how anyone can be identified with any religion while their actions are totally against the teachings of that religion. I don't know what the crusaders of the middle ages motives were but I can't imagine it had much to do with divine inspiration, and apparently people in the middle east still have grievances going back to that! It makes about as much sense as seeing little kids as ideological partisans.
axel
Tennalaga Class
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
It's usually the people themselves who claim that identification. Because they don't have a personality of their own they have to identify with and fight for some ideology to give their lives some meaning. Instead of being just a decent person they have to live up to being an Aryan or a jihadist or whatever kind of holy warrior.
This even applies to the crusaders of the Middle Ages. The crusades were initiated for the knights. The golden age of the knights was over. A lot of them were just unemployed warriors, causing problems in their home countries. Thus they were sent to the Near East to give their lives some meaning (and cause trouble there). Sounds funny but it is the sad truth.
This also applies to the Mujaheddin by the way. Unemployed warriors that's what they are/were.
Thank God we are not talking about a "race war" yet.
Fact is there are strong sentiments in Europe against immigrants. And they are getting stronger. As it seems in some of the Northern European countries including Norway an astonishingly high percentage of the votes can be reached by chauvinist propaganda.
I don't say that there aren't problems with immigrants. But chauvinism, even in a moderate way, is not the way to solve them.
But I agree: "hero" is probably the wrong expression in this context.
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