Liability

chas_kit

G45 Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
I'm thinking about taking down almost all the song files I have on my site. Why? I don't want to get sued! Anyone involved in a recording can threaten a lawsuit, right? - one of the band members, a publisher, a producer. Even if the other band members are absolutely fine with having songs posted, or even assist in posting them.

Technically, there are very few sound recordings that will ever be in the public domain in the US - only those produced by the Library of Congress, and some others where the authors/producers/publishers have expressly given up their rights. All others, even going back a 100 years, are automatically protected by copyright law - stricter state laws trump federal ones.

And I've come to the conclusion that US copyright law will never be reformed to make sense.

If there's any provision that protects a blog like mine, I'd love to know about it.
 
Did you have a problem with someone? If not just leave them up until someone asks you to take them down. The worst you can get is a cease and desist order. Sounds like someone may have threatened you?:%:
 
I luckily haven't been threatened yet and I don't post anything without at least one band member approval. That doesn't mean some other bozo band member doesn't have issue with it, however; I just haven't encountered it. Hopefully whatever happened blows over, Chris. Don't let one potential nutjob spoil what you do.
 
In my book, blogs like yours should have all the protections of a museum.... Y'all are doing the world a great service. Any threats of litigation against perceived infringement on the intellectual property covered therein is likely just the wild thrashing of a misguided, broke musician thinking that there is a mountain of cash waiting for them on the internets.
That said, I do not know what the ruling would be if said musician could afford a lawyer and was looking to squash any proof of early embarrassing sounds....
 
It's not even a musician who's objecting, it's a family member of a songwriter of a big hit, a standard of the day that must have been covered by hundreds of bands, who is giving me grief (and plenty of other people on the 'net, it looks like), in my case over a band's demo that was never commercially released!

Thanks for the encouragement, but big museums don't have any protections. Even university libraries are afraid to make public rare recordings in their archives because of the same threat of litigation - doesn't matter if it's an orphan work from 1902 whose ownership can't be traced.
 
It's not even a musician who's objecting, it's a family member of a songwriter of a big hit, a standard of the day that must have been covered by hundreds of bands, who is giving me grief (and plenty of other people on the 'net, it looks like), in my case over a band's demo that was never commercially released!

Thanks for the encouragement, but big museums don't have any protections. Even university libraries are afraid to make public rare recordings in their archives because of the same threat of litigation - doesn't matter if it's an orphan work from 1902 whose ownership can't be traced.

Take it down and keep listing others. No biggie;)
 
It's not even a musician who's objecting, it's a family member of a songwriter of a big hit, a standard of the day that must have been covered by hundreds of bands, who is giving me grief (and plenty of other people on the 'net, it looks like), in my case over a band's demo that was never commercially released!

Thanks for the encouragement, but big museums don't have any protections. Even university libraries are afraid to make public rare recordings in their archives because of the same threat of litigation - doesn't matter if it's an orphan work from 1902 whose ownership can't be traced.

I'm totally unaware of how the copyright laws actually work, but from what you are saying it sounds like they are much more stringent than patent laws. I mean look at all the new drugs that come out and have been patented by a drug manufacturer, after a certain number of years generics are allowed which are the same formula (essentially) as the original. I do understand your concerns, I think I would probably take it on a case by case basis if I were you, if someone objects then take it down. I would hate to see sound clips disappear from your site, this very week I've been putting the final touches on a packet of info about the Wild Ones from Richmond, VA for you to post on your site, including the sound clips of our 45 released in 1965. We have not been able to locate the other three members that were a part of the recording, but the drummer and I have agreed that we would like to see our sound clips available on your site. I have never dealt with any copyright issues, but in this day and age of global communications and the free exchange of knowledge, I would think that copyright issues for a site like yours would be getting less likely rather than more likely. Of course, there are always those who think that someway, somehow the world owes them something, I also think there are many more people that appreciate the ability to hear many of these all but lost recordings. There are only so many copies that still exist of many old recordings and very few people would ever have the opportunity to buy a copy and be able to hear it. Again, I do hope you will keep sound clips on your site and only remove ones that someone objects to.
Sincerely,
Clyde Atkinson-organist with the Wild Ones "back in the day"
 
While I don't wanna sound like a killjoy, anyone that posts music on internet websites or blogs for distribution by streaming, downloading (free, or for charge) which they themselves did not create is in violation of copyright. 1925, 1945, 1965, 2005, the year doesn't matter.

Unless the work falls into public domain, any person or estate descendant of the copyright claimant (usually the songwriter, but not always) has every legal right to pursue and file a lawsuit against said person who violates the copyright by illegally distributing the work.

I don't buy into this "well the internet has changed everything" attitude. Youtube notwithstanding. It's just FAR more rampant in today's world. What the 'net has done is make violations much more transparent and easy to ascertain. Before the internet, with regards to obscure '60s music songs released on bootlegs, the folks who wrote / own / retain the copyright had to be made aware. Today, a simple surf of the internet reduces that former massive time and work effort required (plus awareness, personal connections, and happenstance) to that of boiling water.

Larry (you all remember him, right?) of the Mods was one who would not stand for his songs to be freely distributed on the internet. If you wanted to hear them, he says, buy the Back From
The Grave / Teenage shutdown comps. Yes, he gets a miniscule cut of money for every sale of the LPs/CDs
But he told me it isn't about the money - it's the principle. Just because something is old, and obscure doesn't translate into a free-for-all of public sharing.

The Library Of Congress is wrestling with such obstacles via "free use" (another law that is being broken, based on what I see daily on Youtube) and deciding what to do with "orphan works". In the case of the latter, anyone who can prove they tried to locate and contact the copyright claimant is somewhat protected from any legal damages if the claimant comes forward after the fact weeks / months / years later. Monies, the law says, should be set aside to cover damages should a claimant come forward.

But NO ONE who chooses to upload songs on the internet will ever take on the time and effort involved to do this. So, we'll always have blogs, website and Youtube chock full of violations. It just depends on when someone who feels violated decides to take a stand - and they have every right to do so. Thankfully, not every copyright claimant feels that the letter of the law is more important than a willingness to share their obscure and nearly forgotten works.

Think of it this way - violation of copyright law via the internet is akin to breaking the posted speed limit when you are driving your vehicle. You know that posted 35mph limit on a straight two lane road is too slow for traffic flow - old, outdated, probably established during the year 1950 when cars drove far slower in speed. Therefore, you proceed to drive a reasonable 55mph. Other cars are also traveling near or over that rate of speed. But a cop car hidden behind a row of trees darts out to chase after you, and pulls you over for speeding. Say what you want, but - you broke the law, and you got caught!
 
I'm thinking about taking down almost all the song files I have on my site. Why? I don't want to get sued! Anyone involved in a recording can threaten a lawsuit, right? - one of the band members, a publisher, a producer. Even if the other band members are absolutely fine with having songs posted, or even assist in posting them.

Technically, there are very few sound recordings that will ever be in the public domain in the US - only those produced by the Library of Congress, and some others where the authors/producers/publishers have expressly given up their rights. All others, even going back a 100 years, are automatically protected by copyright law - stricter state laws trump federal ones.

And I've come to the conclusion that US copyright law will never be reformed to make sense.

If there's any provision that protects a blog like mine, I'd love to know about it.

Thinking about this a little more, I think the possibility of a lawsuit by anyone over these old recordings should be pretty remote. Let's use our record as an example, while searching for the missing members of our band, I did extensive searches on the internet for them, during that time I decided to see if there were any unpaid funds credited to the record. I could find no information or listing, past or present for the publisher of the two songs, the songs were BMI and BMI had no listing of any sort, if fact as far as BMI was concerned they didn't exist. I would have a very hard time proving "standing" or my right to sue given those points I made. In some legal situations I'm currently dealing with over some oil and mineral rights my wife owns, even though they have been previously leased by an oil company, payment was made to my wife and my wife cashed the checks, she is the owner of record in the County office of mineral/oil rights and the rights were willed to her by her father prior to the original lease. We now have to go back and prove that we have "standing" or that we indeed do own the rights prior to negotiating with a different oil company on a new lease (the old lease was for a year or two in length some twenty plus years ago). I think it is much more expensive to prove the "right to sue" and initiate a lawsuit, never mind the out of pocket costs for most average people. Of course there are exceptions to that (aren't there always), but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that when complaints are received by you, promptly taking down the one song or songs would be acceptable to most complaintants.
Clyde
 
While I don't wanna sound like a killjoy, anyone that posts music on internet websites or blogs for distribution by streaming, downloading (free, or for charge) which they themselves did not create is in violation of copyright. 1925, 1945, 1965, 2005, the year doesn't matter.

Unless the work falls into public domain, any person or estate descendant of the copyright claimant (usually the songwriter, but not always) has every legal right to pursue and file a lawsuit against said person who violates the copyright by illegally distributing the work.

I don't buy into this "well the internet has changed everything" attitude. Youtube notwithstanding. It's just FAR more rampant in today's world. What the 'net has done is make violations much more transparent and easy to ascertain. Before the internet, with regards to obscure '60s music songs released on bootlegs, the folks who wrote / own / retain the copyright had to be made aware. Today, a simple surf of the internet reduces that former massive time and work effort required (plus awareness, personal connections, and happenstance) to that of boiling water.

Larry (you all remember him, right?) of the Mods was one who would not stand for his songs to be freely distributed on the internet. If you wanted to hear them, he says, buy the Back From
The Grave / Teenage shutdown comps. Yes, he gets a miniscule cut of money for every sale of the LPs/CDs
But he told me it isn't about the money - it's the principle. Just because something is old, and obscure doesn't translate into a free-for-all of public sharing.

The Library Of Congress is wrestling with such obstacles via "free use" (another law that is being broken, based on what I see daily on Youtube) and deciding what to do with "orphan works". In the case of the latter, anyone who can prove they tried to locate and contact the copyright claimant is somewhat protected from any legal damages if the claimant comes forward after the fact weeks / months / years later. Monies, the law says, should be set aside to cover damages should a claimant come forward.

But NO ONE who chooses to upload songs on the internet will ever take on the time and effort involved to do this. So, we'll always have blogs, website and Youtube chock full of violations. It just depends on when someone who feels violated decides to take a stand - and they have every right to do so. Thankfully, not every copyright claimant feels that the letter of the law is more important than a willingness to share their obscure and nearly forgotten works.

Think of it this way - violation of copyright law via the internet is akin to breaking the posted speed limit when you are driving your vehicle. You know that posted 35mph limit on a straight two lane road is too slow for traffic flow - old, outdated, probably established during the year 1950 when cars drove far slower in speed. Therefore, you proceed to drive a reasonable 55mph. Other cars are also traveling near or over that rate of speed. But a cop car hidden behind a row of trees darts out to chase after you, and pulls you over for speeding. Say what you want, but - you broke the law, and you got caught!

A fair argument that you have put up, I don't think you're being a "killjoy", rather you're stating the legalities and the morality issues and I applaud you for that. At the same time there are other realities that make me look at things differently today, I've tried to be an honest, moral, and mostly legal living citizen for 62 years. Take my music synthesizers that I currently own, play music with and record in my home studio with. Many of them are twenty plus years old, their manufacturers hold all sorts of patents on them, copyrights on the schematics and service manuals, etc. And since those old models have been replaced many times over by the "next generation" of synths, these companies do not have the willingness to supply many needed parts (not to mention they simply lack the ability to supply some), sell service manuals and/or schematics, etc. So what does someone like me do when I want to keep using one of these old synths, but the manufacturer does not want to any longer provide support for a synthesizer that I bought new in the late '80s? There are many of us that made a decision to share copyrighted service manuals and schematics, burn new ROM chips for each other if someone has a ROM go bad, and other ways of supporting each other to keep these older synths going. Now I know that is an entirely different situation and set of issues, but it still affects how I look at the legalities, honesty and morality at this point in my life. You are absolutely correct in everything you stated, twenty years ago I would probably have agreed with you immediately. Today I see things a little bit differently.
Clyde
 
Clyde,

Both Wild Ones songs issued on the 45 - "Baby I Love You" and "Listen To The Drums" - were submitted to the Library Of Congress for copyright certification. I researched these titles in the '90s at the Library Of Congress and have the info logged (along with 10,000+ additional titles). With the "Sonny Bono law" that went into effect in the late 90s, all songs that used to have to be renewed by a claimant by the day the original 28 year span elapsed from the time a song was notarized by the LOC are now automatically covered under the law for the lifespan of the claimant(s) plus an additional 99 years thereafter.
So any member of your group, should he chose to make a stink about it, can cause a fuss, and have the law on their side. BMI is a song publishing company, established to distribute royalties for the broadcast of a song by various media formats. It has no bearing whatsoever on ownership of any created "work" (book, song, painting, etc.)
 
Patents make more sense - get your profits in 20 years and then it goes to the public domain.

I don't mind taking down a song when someone complains. I respect their feelings in the matter, even if I disagree as to the impact.

Copyright law is more than quaintly outdated. look at it this way - since about half the US population are illegally downloading music or watching unlicensed content on Youtube, then isn't it time the law was changed? Respect for the law, yes, but the law also has to respect human nature. Otherwise it's making criminals of millions of ordinary people.

Clyde, I am looking forward to reading the Wild Ones story at last!
 
obedience to the law is free desire. i think the system that seems commonly used by sites - it stays up until someone writes in and complains and is taken down - seems perfectly reasonable. whilst i understand the filesharing of whole albums really inflicts on people's income i don't see a problem with individual tracks being shared, whether on blogs or YouTube. It has more benefits surely, as the band in question gets fresh exposure.
 
As a publisher myself, what Moptop says is correct. Any song written prior to 1964 should have been re-registered by the copyright claimant on the 28th year. If it was not than it falls into public domain. MANY copyrights started falling into public domain because of this, and that is why they passed the Sonny Bono law.

Most of the time I do not worry much about a blog or youtube having one of my songs up for free listening, but if it is for sale on a Music Site that is a different story. They will get an email from me saying to get a license through Harry Fox agency.

The only reason I do not put full copy's of songs on this forum is eventually I will release these songs on vinyl or cd. I am a trusting person by nature but odds are someone will use it if I put up the whole song.

I would do as others suggested, upon first objection of a file being up illegally, take it down. Also do you have a way of keeping track of how many times a specific file has been downloaded?

If you need anything or any other questions you can PM me Chas.
 
One way to operate a blog with sound flies - keep a file up on a current or recent (say, the past two weeks), then delete the songs from the featured profile.
Keeping a song uploaded for an unspecified amount of time creates a scenario for potential trouble / hassle.
 
Another way around the 'problem' is to make the MP3 file non-downloadable.

Although I am aware that with certain software one can 'grab' the music file anyway.
 
I had a similar problem a couple of years ago with my blog (peachfuzzforest). Figured it would be unlikely anything would happen, but I couldn't be bothered with any hassle so took everything down. Shame really as I put me off the whole blogging blog and I've barely posted anything since. At request I uploaded a couple of tracks a while back and just a couple of weeks ago got another threat, so stuff it...... It's a great shame as the blog is a great way of tracking down old band members.
 
I don't have any great solution, but just wanted to say I'm a huge fan of GarageHangover site and think it's a fantastic and essential resource. I'm glad that it exists and hope it continues for a long time.