NEW COMP: REVENGE '66 lim. edn (300) 60s garage LP

Frantic said:
As to capitalism, we all know V/A artists comps don't sell much on vinyl. At
this stage, V/A CDs still do OK, I guess. And we all know it costs more to
manufacture vinyl. You rag on Ace because they didn't do this, or other comps on
vinyl - but why would they sink there money into something that will only sell a
couple of hundred at most?.I know for a fact that Alec has begged Ace to do
vinyl for years on the garage stuff, but it's only very, very recently that
there has become a bit more of a market beyond the hardcore garage vinyl people.
Besides, he, I, Tim Warren,. Billy Miller and all the other kool people on this
forum who produce comps are focused on getting the good shit out, not worrying
about whether they have catered to the format nazis.

But the bigger point - how am I gonna buy comp I know is legit, mastered from
the best sources etc A CD that costs $15-$20, or an LP with a third less running
time and costs $30 or more just because its "limited"? I just want the music,
fer chrissakes. If it's also available on vinyl for you, great. Do you love the music? Will you'll ignore it unless it's on yer beloved vinyl?
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I don't buy your argument that making vinyl in the oo's was not cost efficient.
On the contrary, the CD bubble subsidized vinyl manufacturing. The ridiculous whole sale mark up of CD's allowed labels that cared to continue to manufacture LP's. I'm sorry but your arguing with someone
who knows a little too much to accept your rationale. In fact vinyl manufacturing will cost you more now than it did then. Vinyl record manufacturing is way up and plants are running to keep up with demand. Even major labels are scrambling to get back in the game even if only in a token sense. I "guess they saw that writing on the wall".
 
As you are targeting Ace for criticism, you probably didn't notice that they have been issuing soul and funk stuff on vinyl (Kent and BGP labels) for years, because there was enough demand from those people. So now, if they put out some of the garage stuff that was CD only before, on vinyl, maybe you'll buy it - but how can they have "missed the boat", when the audience was tiny in the first place. Vinyl sales have not risen to match the decline in CD sales, we all know that. Majors may be scrambling to put out vinyl, but it ain't garage.
 
I'm not arguing the quality of ACE product. I'm not arguing over the merits of legitimate release. those are all fucking no-brainers. I'm telling you that if you only manufacture CD's because it's a better mark-up someone else will give your customers what they want. right or wrong. Cookie's "revenge" is fucking proof positive. If you can sanely argue with this statement or with the simple fact that ACE failed to do this you are ignoring the obvious in order to argue. Take a hike.
 
legbarecords said:
I'm not arguing the quality of ACE product. I'm not arguing over the merits of legitimate release. those are all fucking no-brainers. I'm telling you that if you only manufacture CD's because it's a better mark-up someone else will give your customers what they want. right or wrong. Cookie's "revenge" is fucking proof positive. If you can sanely argue with this statement or with the simple fact that ACE failed to do this you are ignoring the obvious in order to argue. Take a hike.
Click to expand...

Hey bub...ACE WILL PUT IT OUT WHEN THEY FEEL THE NEED. They have 1000's of releases that they may want to release on vinyl. THOUSANDS!!!! GOT IT!!!! Not the tens you and I have!!! They will get to them (I'm sure) in the order of importance. Hey, I know Kookie Cook...As far as I know I'm the only guy who has ever interviewed him.... I would love for him to get a few more beans in royalties for his tracks. But it'll happen when it happens and not because LEGBARECORDS DEMANDS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
legbarecords said:
the simple fact that ACE failed to do this you are ignoring the obvious in order to argue. Take a hike.
Click to expand...
ACE FAILED NOTHING...Next time, you go spend 100's of hours tracking this stuff down like Alec and I did, I flew to Illinois on my dime to help get this deal done. It took us over 3 years to get Arlie to allow Ace to do this deal. And by the fucking by....that's how (CD) the Milky Way label owner wanted it to come out at the time. He actually wanted cassette but that was out of the question. So please stick to something you do know. Your own band. Don't try and tell us guys (you know who you are) that work at this stuff out of love how to do things your way!!!
 
"vinyl sales have not risen to match the decline in CD sales."

and they never will because part of that revenue is going downloads. Legitimate and otherwise. So it's not even a valid point.

"As you are targeting Ace for criticism, you probably didn't notice that they have been issuing soul and funk stuff on vinyl (Kent and BGP labels) for years, because there was enough demand from those people."

This statement is also invalid. You have no way of camparing CD sales to Vinyl when you never pressed the record to begin with.

Soul audience bigger than garage? Sure. More deserving of a vinyl release. hardly. Just more proof that they were happy to let the CD profits subsidize vinyl. Just not the releases of this genre. Mistake. Am I a nazi? Hardly, do I want to purchase a CD player so that I can enjoy one negligent labels releases. No way. I'll buy the ones I gotta have and I'll listen to them on road trips. You don't get it. I'm a fucking fan! A loyal customer! And you basically told me to fuck off! "we know what we're doing". No, you fuck off.
 
The reason you even got me started on this is because you said YOU DON'T BUY COMPS. And later you said, I already gave ACE my money, so you basically deserve this on vinyl or else you will go buy the 1st MILKY WAY boot that comes along. That's why I got pissed. If you are so loyal play by the fucking rules!!!! And I've never told you to fuck off.
 
legbarecords said:
"As you are targeting Ace for criticism, you probably didn't notice that they have been issuing soul and funk stuff on vinyl (Kent and BGP labels) for years, because there was enough demand from those people."

This statement is also invalid. You have no way of camparing CD sales to Vinyl when you never pressed the record to begin with.
Click to expand...
Your just kidding right? A few years ago I released the IKON RECORDS STORY on cd and when I was at 1100 in sales (after 5 months) Tim Warren over at Crypt leased it from us and put it on vinyl. After the 1st 5 or 6 months I remember him telling me he had only sold about 300-400. And he's the fucking king of this shit!!! Invalid...I think not. Oh...and if I'd put Ikon out now I'd maybe only sell 400-500 and Tim would still only sell 300-400.;)
 
I bought it already! That and a dozen other ACE releases! This is not just about the MILKY WAY releases! We are talking about them for two reasons. The fucking title of this thread is "REVENGE 66"! And because when I brought it up a while ago your response was smug. Looks like if you're artists are being booted and your operation is ramping up vinyl output your response mighty be a little more humble. What a joke. I don't buy randomly selected poorly manufactured garbage like REVENGE 66. I want a quality product on vinyl. If you think I'm alone or an impatient baby, that's your right but it don't make it true. My original posts about how I wished ACE would do vinyl releases for their garage titles was largely dismissed by you. That's the same as telling someone to fuck off. Not long ago when I said I had a rare soul record, you basically accused me of being a liar. Your responses to others here are also often rude unless you deem them "cool". I'm done with this as we'll never see eye to eye.
 
legbarecords said:
I bought it already! That and a dozen other ACE releases! This is not just about the MILKY WAY releases! We are talking about them for two reasons. The fucking title of this thread is "REVENGE 66"! And because when I brought it up a while ago your response was smug. Looks like if you're artists are being booted and your operation is ramping up vinyl output your response mighty be a little more humble. What a joke. I don't buy randomly selected poorly manufactured garbage like REVENGE 66. I want a quality product on vinyl. If you think I'm alone or an impatient baby, that's your right but it don't make it true. My original posts about how I wished ACE would do vinyl releases for their garage titles was largely dismissed by you. That's the same as telling someone to fuck off. Not long ago when I said I had a rare soul record, you basically accused me of being a liar. Your responses to others here are also often rude unless you deem them "cool". I'm done with this as we'll never see eye to eye.
Click to expand...

I deem 99% of guys here cool...As for the 1%...sue me:%: And no...All I wanted was a cool scan of a rare record because I collect scans. Sounds more like you have a major bone to pick with me.
 
Frantic said:
I deem 99% of guys here cool...As for the 1%...sue me:%: And no...All I wanted was a cool scan of a rare record because I collect scans. Sounds more like you have a major bone to pick with me.
Click to expand...

You're not fooling anyone who read those posts. Guess I'm a big narcissistic baby for calling you out. Like with the vinyl thing right? Let me guess which one of us is single with no children....
 
bosshoss said:
Someone somewhere probably owns the copyright. Just because a company fails doesn't mean copyrights expire.
To make copies of copyrighted material and distribute them is against the law, if you don't own the copyright, or have an agreement with the copyright owner. Anyone who makes illegal copies risks lawsuits for breach of copyright.
On the other hand, without people taking those risks, the soybomb '60s garage compilation database would consist of maybe 5 percent of the titles that you'll find there today. 95 percent of all those ultra rare original songs, including just about all the 45s used to make Back from The Grave, Pebbles, Teenage Shutdown etc., would just be sitting in collections, occasionally selling for megabucks on eBay. That would be it. Since trading tapes or mp3s of copyrighted material is illegal also, you would have never heard any of it, so at least you wouldn't know what you were missing.
I can't imagine anyone here being happy with such a "completely legal" situation...
Click to expand...

Of course someone somewhere probably owns the copyright but if you can prove you weren't able to locate that very person because the repertoire is not registrated at all, then you can use it and release it as copyright control. It doesn't mean you won't pay royalties for it in the future but it means that the owner should show up first and ask for a post-sale agreement.
I can't say this is the case in your homeland though because there are a lot companies in the USA dealing with publishing registration contracts (BMI, ASCAP, and so on) and it is maybe not easy to make a research but this is just the rule in Europe.
For instance, The IV Biddens sick and lonely is not registrated anywhere in Europe (it's a pure guess but I'm pretty sure it isn't) so one can use it, here anyway.
 
International music copyright laws are a minefield. Most fans putting out unauthorised comps would be completely unaware of the intricate laws governing copyright in each country where the material may be sold. I guess that is why companies like Ace have legal departments to take care of those kind of details.

As for the IVBidden, a legal case could be made that I own the copyright, since I bought the abandoned studio and all its contents from its owner Paul Fein, including IVBidden contracts in which copyright was assigned by the band to Vincent Gianncursio, studio owner, now deceased. This definition taken from NY abandoned property law:

Property is generally deemed to have been abandoned if it is found in a place where the true owner likely intended to leave it, but is in such a condition that it is apparent that he or she has no intention of returning to claim it. Abandoned property generally becomes the property of whoever should find it and take possession of it first.

According to that definition, I own the Fine Recording Studio and all its copyrights, just as surely as if I had purchased the studio outright from Vincent Gianncursio. Maybe I am entitled to pursue the makers of Revenge 66 for copyright infringement? Not likely, but I can tell you that legal action was threatened against me, in similar circumstances by someone who had purchased copyrights of an obscure label, when I made my Wyld Canada compilations available for download to forum members. In that case I folded and paid the compensation demanded. But I had no idea of my true legal obligations, and fighting the threat was too much trouble.

The point of all this is simply, comp-making fans are generally not equipped with the legal resources to ensure that everything (or anything) they do is above board. In most cases, they just own the rare discs, and that's about it. Some may argue they should never have done it, but the fact is, most of the great comps we know and love have been produced this way.
 
bosshoss said:
As for the IVBidden, a legal case could be made that I own the copyright, since I bought the abandoned studio and all its contents, including IVBidden contracts in which copyright was assigned by the band to Vincent Gianncursio, studio owner, now deceased.
Click to expand...

that I didn't know.
 
Wow. What a discussion. I'm hardly keeping up with my daily tasks because I have to read all this.

Sorry Joey, but apart from the major point, which Greg is totally right about (= give the people what they want), he's also right about your attitude. I'm not talking about rants and abusive language. That might be considered punk or rock'n'roll or whatever. But very contradictory to that is an attitude that comes across as a mixture of arrogance and opportunism. "This important guy is doing this, that important label is doing that." And because they say or do so, you believe it. That's the opposite of punk or rock'n'roll in my eyes.
A little more contact to the grassroots would perhaps serve you well...
 
axel said:
Wow. What a discussion. I'm hardly keeping up with my daily tasks because I have to read all this.

Sorry Joey, but apart from the major point, which Greg is totally right about (= give the people what they want), he's also right about your attitude. I'm not talking about rants and abusive language. That might be considered punk or rock'n'roll or whatever. But very contradictory to that is an attitude that comes across as a mixture of arrogance and opportunism. "This important guy is doing this, that important label is doing that." And because they say or do so, you believe it. That's the opposite of punk or rock'n'roll in my eyes.
A little more contact to the grassroots would perhaps serve you well...
Click to expand...
Like I said IT'S A 50-50 WORLD. Half of the collectors want everything right now, no matter if it's a boot or not and no matter who's toes get stepped on and the other half try and follow the rules. You just happen to be part of the latter. And I'll defend labels like CRYPT, ACE, NORTON, SUNDAZED, 60sGARAGEBANDS.COM and myself until I die. And every single time a crappy bootleg shows up on this forum that includes songs that one of those labels owns the rights to, I'm going to point it out. Get used to it.
 
Well I'll be... Sounds like a miniature US Congress right here on the G45 central. Peace Brothers!
 
The argument, after haggling over "rights" which I'll get to in a sec, really boils down to your personal format fetish. I have some friends who still hate CDs. They don't have a lot of the 60s garage comps that have come out which are only on CD. Fine for them.

I didn't care for CDs when they came out, but I would rather have most (not all) comps on CD first. For ease of playability - I can listen while I'm doing something else either in the room, on the computer at the other end of the house, or (really important) in the car. CDs take up a lot less space. And most important - nobody is doing 100% pure analog transfers, from start to finish, unaffected somewhere by a digitial process anymore. There is always some aspect of going to digital somewhere in the chain. Then, looking at the analog-digital-analog process means it is almost equivalent to losing a generation from the original.

I bought the Ikon Story on CD (I also have the double LP Crypt put out). I think the CD sounds BETTER than the vinyl because of the digital conversion in the mastering. If course, it doesn't sound as good as the original 45s, but you all know that anyway.
The other important thing is that a lot of great stuff reissued on CD will never come out on vinyl. I'd rather have access to this stuff than wait around and hope for a vinyl issue. The only thing about vinyl that I prefer over CDs is that the artwork, and liner notes are larger in size.

The Copyright Control excuse / BS is just that. Any person who comes forward and can prove that they created whatever song has been reproduced without permission and their knowledge can pursue legal damages. And now it is the estate, not just the person or persons who created the work. Simply slapping "copyright control" on your bootleg doesn't make you any less prone to a possible legal lawsuit. In the USA, congress has been wrangling with the "Orphan Works" category for this regard. But that implies that said person who wishes to reproduce (whether free distribution, or for profit) must make (and prove, via documentation) attempts to locate the copyright owner or claimant, then set aside monies in case the claimant or his/her estate comes forward.
I can prove via documentation that I tried to contact claimants, by doing extensive copyright research, and then showing detailed avenues of pursuit where all leads were in vain. Unlike the smarmy dudes responsible for Revenge Dogshit '66
 
MopTopMike said:
The argument, after haggling over "rights" which I'll get to in a sec, really boils down to your personal format fetish. I have some friends who still hate CDs. They don't have a lot of the 60s garage comps that have come out which are only on CD. Fine for them.

I didn't care for CDs when they came out, but I would rather have most (not all) comps on CD first. For ease of playability - I can listen while I'm doing something else either in the room, on the computer at the other end of the house, or (really important) in the car. CDs take up a lot less space. And most important - nobody is doing 100% pure analog transfers, from start to finish, unaffected somewhere by a digitial process anymore. There is always some aspect of going to digital somewhere in the chain. Then, looking at the analog-digital-analog process means it is almost equivalent to losing a generation from the original.

I bought the Ikon Story on CD (I also have the double LP Crypt put out). I think the CD sounds BETTER than the vinyl because of the digital conversion in the mastering. If course, it doesn't sound as good as the original 45s, but you all know that anyway.
The other important thing is that a lot of great stuff reissued on CD will never come out on vinyl. I'd rather have access to this stuff than wait around and hope for a vinyl issue. The only thing about vinyl that I prefer over CDs is that the artwork, and liner notes are larger in size.

The Copyright Control excuse / BS is just that. Any person who comes forward and can prove that they created whatever song has been reproduced without permission and their knowledge can pursue legal damages. And now it is the estate, not just the person or persons who created the work. Simply slapping "copyright control" on your bootleg doesn't make you any less prone to a possible legal lawsuit. In the USA, congress has been wrangling with the "Orphan Works" category for this regard. But that implies that said person who wishes to reproduce (whether free distribution, or for profit) must make (and prove, via documentation) attempts to locate the copyright owner or claimant, then set aside monies in case the claimant or his/her estate comes forward.
I can prove via documentation that I tried to contact claimants, by doing extensive copyright research, and then showing detailed avenues of pursuit where all leads were in vain. Unlike the smarmy dudes responsible for Revenge Dogshit '66
Click to expand...
All good points. CD's have a practicality(especially in the car) that is hard to ignore. Though the increasing quality of portable electronic devices will probably eventually do away with this application. So my young friends tell me at least. No argument there. If I need it and it's only on CD I buy it. No argument there. Stepping out of the analog process is a cost saving measure. It's not impossible and the cost is not that much greater. I provide the mastering engineer with a digital file for CD mastering and a tape master(no digital processing at any stage) for vinyl. If a tape is damaged or your trying to digitally clean up a hammered record that's another story and I do understand that this is the case many times with the kind of titles we're talking about here. That said the sound loss on a properly mastered record can be very little and in the case of a mastering engineer with a truly good ear jumping back to analog at the end of the process can actually help the already digitally manipulated signal. I bought the IKON LP's and was very happy but can not compare to the CD as I've never heard it. Like I said I mainly play CD's in the car, so if I had purchased it the CD case would be broken by now and the CD unreadable. That's why I like giving download cards with LP's. You get the record, you get the big pictures, the big text, the ability to burn another copy when the last one you had in the car won't play anymore because it's covered in coca cola! The biggest solid point Mike makes here is that a lot of the vinyl is of lesser sound quality. It doesn't have to be though. Labels take short cuts. Mastering guys who just graduated from engineering school watchin that line moving across the screen instead of using their ears. So, no it doesn't have to be that way but often it is. People are more apt to be lazy about the things you can't see(and they assume you can't hear) where as the people who put out things like dogshit 66 are lazy about the entire process. Except hand numbering of course. He's probably got writers cramp the poor guy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.