"60s garage music" versus "pop culture"

[axel]

Basically I know nothing about Germany in the '60s. Were there Top 40 radio stations? Local labels and studios? These were the major factors driving rock and roll in America in the '60s.

Good question. I think it was quite different.
I think the most important difference is that there was no real pop culture (of any quality) in Germany BEFORE the 60s. There was no Sinatra, no Gershwin, no Leiber & Stoller, no whatever. It was all bullshit. Pop culture was more or less introduced to Germany in the late 50s/early 60s. And of course it was copying the US American paradigms at grand scale. (Germany had great prospects for pop culture in the 20s, but that was all demolished or corrupted by the Nazis.)
BUT there were thousands of bands playing beat music. Just like in the States. It was probably the first time ever in German history, that youth culture had any level of significance. And what's more: they were not only recipients/consumers, but also producers. This is not "elevating" anything. It's just a fact.
And, I guess, basically that's also the way I perceive US American garage/beat music. And I think that is also the reason WHY it is so fresh, innocent, wild and whatever. Because it had only just begun...

 

[Laurent Bigot]

It was probably the first time ever in German history, that youth culture had any level of significance. ..

Jon Savage's Teenage is a must read to learn about youth before the 50s (including in Germany).

 

[Ned]

Interesting thread running here, although it seems a bit tough to navigate as it takes different turns.

To me, "pop" & "popular" mean two different things. "Pop" is something that is fresh, vibrant & for the moment. "Popular" is something that is more or less embraced by the populance during the time it is happening. A teenage band banging out "Gloria" @ a CYO dance in 1966 is "pop", not "popular". In contrast, The Supremes singing "You Can't Hurry Love" was "popular". not "pop".

The music we sometimes discuss here was "pop", not "popular" - believe me when I tell you that probably < 5% of those I went to highschool with ever cared to see a teenage garage band in 1966. It was not "popular" no matter what the romantic revisionist mentality of today leans towards.

Then there is the topic of what "culture" means. That I feel is for each of us to decide as we develope ourselves as individuals with our own values & tastes. I tend to lump "popular culture" & "mass culture" together. I suppose at any given time 10% of "mass" or "popular" culture is interesting & worthwile but the pile of crap to wade through makes it hardly worth the time it takes.

My opinions only.
Ned

 

[axel]

Jon Savage's Teenage is a must read to learn about youth before the 50s (including in Germany).

I'm sure that's an interesting read. There were two youth movements in Germany before the 50s, that I know of, which are probably presented in the book:
1. The "Wandervögel" movement in the 20s. Which was more about camping and hiking, and was not expressed in any kind of media.
2. The "Swing Kids" in the 30s. Who were clearly following a trend in pop culture, but very small in numbers and considered highly subversive. Pretty cool scene. I saw photos of swing kids of the 30s promoting a hairstyle almost like The Jesus & Mary Chain.

 

[axel]

Were there Top 40 radio stations? Local labels and studios? These were the major factors driving rock and roll in America in the '60s.

Sorry, I didn't answer your question.
Regarding the radio stations the answer is: no. I think AFN (American Forces Network) and especially Radio Luxemburg were the only stations where people could hear rock'n'roll. And even they seemed to have played it only for a few hours.
Regarding the labels and studios: there was a surprisingly high number of independent labels if you look at the "Prae-Kraut Pandaemonium" series for example.

 

[beccabear67]

I would buy a book about indigenous '60s rock in the German speaking world, there were a lot of great groups like The Lords, The Boots and The Rattles, and the Sevens were from the Germanic side of Switzerland I think? We've finally been getting a lot of info about Nederlander groups of the '60s in English and can hope other parts of the European scene would follow. I want to know about these things but in terms of the larger picture of these artistic outbursts' relation to society I don't think there is much to find out; society either welcomes or does not welcome creativity, and essentially (and maybe unfortunately for some) it's ultimately a function of economics.

I went through a few years of reading all kinds of books about the Weimar Republic and there is a lot that can be learned from it I'm sure, but maybe it made me a bit allergic to discussion of cultures as people them seemed quite preoccupied with dissecting and evaluating them. In a way it boils down to simplistic stereotypes as all garage groups were no more alike or subscribing to a movement than all protestant Prussians were against the Republic. Usually too economics is the key factor and we never seem to want to really learn those kinds of lessons or the current problems could have been easily spotted before they developed so far (as with the whole idea of the Euro uber-currency or the throwing out in America of regulations created by past catastrophes under the guise of crude stimulation for a growth model).

 

[HarvestmanMan]

I have no clue what any of you are on about.

 

[EXPO67]

I just speak with old wise man. He say people with much time, they speak bollocks. He say many bollocks.

 

[axel]

I just speak with old wise man. He say people with much time, they speak bollocks. He say many bollocks.

Glad to know old wise man is kept busy all the time.

 

[Don Julio]

The music we sometimes discuss here was "pop", not "popular" - believe me when I tell you that probably < 5% of those I went to highschool with ever cared to see a teenage garage band in 1966. It was not "popular" no matter what the romantic revisionist mentality of today leans towards.

That surprises me to hear you say that, Ned. The big cities all had probably 200+ bands active in 1966-68. How could that many bands exist if nobody cared? Granted, there couldn't have been many people queuing up to see Half-Pint and the Fifths, but Oscar and the Majestics, for example, had something like a following in the same area. People didn't go to see them because they were "popular" in the sense that the Shadows of Knight were "popular" (i.e., a group that had had national hits and had been on national TV, tours, etc.), they were just looking for a night out on the town and to socialize with the opposite sex. It was pop/rock music generally that was popular -- the individual bands were a subset of that phenomenon. Surely that makes them (collectively) "popular" in some sense, doesn't it?

 

[Don Julio]

Sorry, I didn't answer your question.
Regarding the radio stations the answer is: no. I think AFN (American Forces Network) and especially Radio Luxemburg were the only stations where people could hear rock'n'roll. And even they seemed to have played it only for a few hours.
Regarding the labels and studios: there was a surprisingly high number of independent labels if you look at the "Prae-Kraut Pandaemonium" series for example.

Yes, I recall Richard Weize (Bear Family Records) telling me that in the late '50s, some national station like Radio Luxemburg would have a 30-minute programme where they would play the latest pop hits from America. I guess that would be once a week. So there was no concept of commercial "Top 40" stations in every town. But why was that, if there was otherwise an influx of the US pop culture paradigms?

So, there were lots of indie labels, but little or no chance of radio play or a regional hit? One is not necessarily related to the other ... 99% of the indie labels in the USA never got any airplay either, but that was what most of them were at least hoping for.

 

[Ned]

That surprises me to hear you say that, Ned. The big cities all had probably 200+ bands active in 1966-68. How could that many bands exist if nobody cared? Granted, there couldn't have been many people queuing up to see Half-Pint and the Fifths, but Oscar and the Majestics, for example, had something like a following in the same area. People didn't go to see them because they were "popular" in the sense that the Shadows of Knight were "popular" (i.e., a group that had had national hits and had been on national TV, tours, etc.), they were just looking for a night out on the town and to socialize with the opposite sex. It was pop/rock music generally that was popular -- the individual bands were a subset of that phenomenon. Surely that makes them (collectively) "popular" in some sense, doesn't it?

I grew up in a town of 100,000 or so in Connecticut. 3 highschools with 2000 or so in each school & a few smaller high schools & several boarding schools in the surrounding area. Maybe 7500 or so kids between 15 - 18 or so during the "prime years" & 2 teen clubs within the area that drew 250 or so tops on a Saturday night. 500 or so people on a weekend with 7500 to draw on is a little >5% but still <10%.
Maybe a stray football or basketball game pulled a few away here & there, as well.

I live currently about a 20 minute walk away from one of our teen hangouts & I seriously doubt if I asked most locals my age if they went there they could hardly remember the names of one of the bands they saw or if they had a local hit on the radio. A question about matrix or dead wax numbers would be as if coming from outer space to them! It was a backdrop to meet people away from school & sports, and maybe an opportunity to chat up a babe from a different school, and to score some beer or tea. A bigger band with a national hit would draw a slightly larger crowd. The Third Bardo or The Squires drew no more than one of the house bands. All the teen clubs were away from the center of the city & you needed a car to get to them, slightly different geography may have made things a little different.

The bands were expected to play recognized hits from the radio with a stray song of their own here & there. I think some people that read these threads think "On the Road South" or "Green Fuz" was being played everywhere in America by teen bands on a Saturday night. It was more like "Who'll Be the Next In Line", "Louie Louie", "Wipe Out" & "Empty Heart" with a song of their own mixed in here & there. It all come & went and changed to more national bands with LPs getting attention very quickly.

Ned

Ned

 

[axel]

So there was no concept of commercial "Top 40" stations in every town. But why was that, if there was otherwise an influx of the US pop culture paradigms?

So, there were lots of indie labels, but little or no chance of radio play or a regional hit? One is not necessarily related to the other ... 99% of the indie labels in the USA never got any airplay either, but that was what most of them were at least hoping for.

I really didn't think of talking about Germany when starting this thread, but as my major interest was finding out about the differing definitions of pop culture, you're absolutely hitting the mark when asking questions like these.
Of course I can't give any profound first hand account like Ned, no comprehensive picture by any means. Just bits and pieces I read or heard from witnesses of the period.

There were local scenes and bands probably not totally different from the ones Ned describes. At that point (1964-68) the British influence on those scenes was definitely stronger than the US American. The omnipresent word was "beat". From what I know the original fans of this music didn't use the term "rock'n'roll", because it was identified with 50s artists.
Those people weren't political, but they were considered quite subversive, a threat to society. German mainstream society was very reactionist. Partly because there were still Nazis sitting in all kinds of administrative positions, in the police, in the judiciary, in the universities etc. The rest of society was trying to forget or ignore the past (and their own involvement) by resorting to a very clean-cut, idyllic cultural orientation.
The major issue besides the music, as silly as it may sound today, was the hair-style, or more precisely the length of hair. I can't find it now, but I read some letter of a person who was addressing the intendant of a broadcasting company by saying: "`Beat´ is not bad for the youth, it's good... of course the hair might be long, but they wash it regularly!"
Things changed very slowly. The first platform for the new youth culture was not on German radio, but on TV. This is speculation, but I imagine they feared playing it on the radio, because it would have been too offensive and frightening for the normal public. On TV things were kind of more under control. You saw what you had to deal with. The pogram was called "Beat-Club" on Radio Bremen (it says "Radio", but it was a television broadcast) and it started in 1965. That was the first and for some time the only thing that was happening officially.
The rest was underground, so to speak. A very large underground, because a high percentage of the youth actually wanted to hear that kind of music. So live acts, and especially local acts played an important role.

I don't know if the German definition of pop culture really stems from there, but this was probably the very start of modern pop culture in Germany. And while being highly popular amongst the youth it was hardly present in mass media.
Regarding the indie labels: of course the numbers can by no means be compared to the US. This would need further investigation, but I presume they were private enterprises, studios, which saw the demand not so much for national distribution, but from the many beat groups who wanted to record something and sell it to their audience.

I'm sure this all sounds a bit crude. I'm just trying to give a summary to the best of my knowledge.

 

[tom kirby]

I don't recall the term "beat" as a descriptor of what we were playing back then, mostly R&R. But, it was a term used in Europe. If the term was used, it must have been a regional thing. It didn't make it to mid-Michigan. But, like the "drug culture" it moved across the country slowly. There were things happening on the East and Left coast that were out of popularity by the time they reached all the small town bumpkins.

 

[wildpaws]

I don't recall the term "beat" as a descriptor of what we were playing back then, mostly R&R. But, it was a term used in Europe. If the term was used, it must have been a regional thing. It didn't make it to mid-Michigan. But, like the "drug culture" it moved across the country slowly. There were things happening on the East and Left coast that were out of popularity by the time they reached all the small town bumpkins.

Certainly never called it "beat" in Richmond, VA, it was rock and roll around here except for the other classifications like R&B, soul, country, jazz, etc. And I found Ned's numbers interesting, Richmond (and the surrounding metro area) back then was maybe 250,000 people, yet there were probably 40 or more clubs that had live bands on any given weekend. There were at least three "teen clubs" that were packed every weekend and as well several community centers ran teen nights at least one night per weekend. Many of the local bands had a very strong following, several of them had 45s getting airplay between '64-'69 and you can bet that most teens knew the names and had favorites.
Clyde

 

[EXPO67]

In England, during the late 50s early 60s rock and roll meant Elvis, Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Bill Haley etc.

From late 1962 when The Beatles and other teenage Liverpool groups started releasing 45s I suppose the term rock and roll didn't fit with the new sound so the genre 'merseybeat' was used to describe the music these young combos were making. In other parts of Britain it was regionalised (ie) Brum beat or just simply called beat. One of the music papers was called 'Teen Beat'

So in the early/mid 60s rock and roll = music by old established acts your parents and teddy boys were into.
R'n'B/beat/mod = music the kids were digging.

Therefore in England, I'm certain that Tonto and the Renegades would have been known as a beat group.

 

[Lee de Parade]

I don't understand nuttin.

 

[tom kirby]

I don't disagree that we would have been called "beat" in Europe. All I was saying is the expression wasn't used around here. But, not surprising because Grand Ledge is a bit off the "beat'en" path.

 

[axel]

I don't think that has to do with Grand Ledge being in the province. I'm sure it wasn't called "beat" anywhere else in the States as well.
The problem is that we have a clearly established genre here, without a correct tag. Maybe it was called "rock'n'roll", but it's clearly different from earlier forms of rock'n'roll (as "funk" is different from "soul" etc.). Maybe it was called "British invasion style", but that is just as unsatisfying.
Greg Shaw gave a good definition of the genre in question and called it "punk" style in 1974. He pointed out the Standells as being a typical example of that style. After that "punk" was used for a later incarnation of the same musical style, so from that on the original was called "60s punk" and that is still the one I prefer.
But we had that kind of discussion more than once before I guess.

 

[mr. splendid]

Things changed very slowly. The first platform for the new youth culture was not on German radio, but on TV. This is speculation, but I imagine they feared playing it on the radio, because it would have been too offensive and frightening for the normal public. On TV things were kind of more under control. You saw what you had to deal with. The pogram was called "Beat-Club" on Radio Bremen (it says "Radio", but it was a television broadcast) and it started in 1965. That was the first and for some time the only thing that was happening officially.

Actually you're wrong , there were radio shows like Twen Club ; Club 16 ; Mittwochsparty ( wednesdayparty ) on german public radio before Beat Club and soon after Beat Club started Beat , Beat , Beat began airing on tv as well . But definitely the biggest thing for beat fans was Radio Luxemburg on medium wave radio . H-J Klitsch's book Shakin' All Over gives a good overview on the german beatscene and what it meant to be a teenager back then .