Surprise, surprise - idle chatter about TBM

theraver said:
I just got the TBM book. What an awesome piece of research! My congrats to Mike and others that made this labor of love a reality. Greg Shaw I'm sure is smiling down from his Astral Plane. I haven't gone through everything yet obviously and hate to rant on my first post here but being have collected 60's sounds (US and worldwide) for 40+ years I have major issues with the grading system. I read the text on Pg. 49 trying to get the specifics on how it was done but it leaves more questions than answers. After going through the list of 10 star discs I come to the conclusion that snotty, wild, wailing, crude, attitude laden or over the edge punkers were given far more precedence than other teenbeat genres. Psych, poppy and commercial styles are generally given the backseat and rarely given higher than a 7. I totally disagree with the premise than snotnose arrogant and wigged out punk is the best. It is but one of the genres that was created after the Big Bang in Feb 64 (Beatles on Ed Sullivan as the book nails it dead on). The other genres such as folkrock/jangle, experimental pop (ala Eight Miles High), freakbeat, early psych as well as commerical pop and ballads all produced 'perfect' records. In my opinion the book should have given a 10 to any teenbeat style that produced a 'perfect' record. I define a 'perfect' record as one that simply cannot be improved upon either in performance, composition, recording or arrangement. And a 'perfect' record should make your jaw drop every time you hear it. A perfect record can possess 'flaws' such as crude recording or sloppy musicianhip provided those flaws give it a unique and infectious charm that produces an eargasm. An example: The Stonemen's 'No More'.
So my quest from this point on is to discover all the records in the book that are stone cold killers worthy of a 10 but were criminally undergraded as not being punky enough. I see other posters have responded to this already and fortunately Mike provided key adjectives such as jangle, shimmering etc that I can start with. I should point out that I am biased towards moody, hook-laden pop and jangle sounds.
I would appreciate hearing from other folks as to what their personal 10's are. So let me sign off for starters with a few discs I would rate as 10 that the book rated at least 2 points lower:
AVENGERS - Batarang
AVENGERS - I Told You So
LOST -Violet Gown (2nd version)
LOST - No Reason Why
13th FLOOR ELEVATORS - She Lives
ROKS - Transparent Day
DOVERS - Third Eye
MYSTIC TIDE - Running Through The Night
ROGUES - You'd Better Look Now
GLAS MENAGERIE - Natasha
SYNDICATE - She Haunts You
SCORPIO TUBE - Yellow Listen
ELECTRAS - Soul Searchin
PLEASURE SEEKERS - Never Thought You'd Leave Me
PRIMATES - Don't Press Your Luck
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Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. :confused: Mike pulled together some of the world's leading authorities on Garage Rock. These are the results. You want different results write your own book. What gives you the right to tell others to rate a record a 10???
 
Frantic said:
Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. :confused: Mike pulled together some of the world's leading authorities on Garage Rock. These are the results. You want different results write your own book. What gives you the right to tell others to rate a record a 10???
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I have every right to express an opinion or offer contructive criticism because I bought the book and have studied/collected 60's music for decades. And I'm not the only poster here who had issues with some of the grades. Last time I checked, discussion forums were about sharing ideas and different opinions.
 
theraver said:
I have every right to express an opinion or offer contructive criticism because I bought the book and have studied/collected 60's music for decades. And I'm not the only poster here who had issues with some of the grades. Last time I checked, discussion forums were about sharing ideas and different opinions.
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Correct, and I have the right to rebut!
 
Frantic said:
Exactly...Everyone has a bias towards one genre or another. That's why no one will ever be totally happy with any rating system.
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My goal is to discover killer US and Transworld 60's sounds. Mike's book is a superb piece of research with wonderful essays in the Bomp style. I simply stated an opinion on the rating system that's all. I happen to knowtwo contributors to the book who have the same 'bias' that I do and FYI I own originals of many of the book's 10's and I love 'em all.
If you or anyone else here would like to turn me on to discs you think are killers or overlooked gems, please share. That's what I'm here for.
 
You will be able to see the entire vote tally, as cast by each cabinet member, in the follow-up book.
No ratings were "given", (I don't understand that term) the number shown in TBM is the CONSENSUS, derived from the mean (average) based upon the number of votes cast for a particular song. And, like it or not, the majority of people tend to favor the snotty, punk sounds higher than the other styles - that should be obvious to all long-time and younger collectors. Why was Back From The Grave the most anticipated comp of all garage comps? Because that is the sound that transcends the time frame.
There are only a small number of 10s and 9s in the book - it was very difficult to achieve a 7 or higher, due to the high standards of the cabinet members.
 
I should also add that I prefer a melodic jangle over the snotty punk sounds most of the time myself. and a killer ballad usually rated high in my vote. But, the consensus view showed otherwise. That is what a consensus is for!
 
Frantic said:
Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. :confused: Mike pulled together some of the world's leading authorities on Garage Rock. These are the results. You want different results write your own book. What gives you the right to tell others to rate a record a 10???
Click to expand...

I love how a new member who takes the time to explain his cause, is well mannered and appears perfectly reasonable, is welcomed with a forthcoming mail like this.
 
theraver said:
In my opinion the book should have given a 10 to any teenbeat style that produced a 'perfect' record. I define a 'perfect' record as one that simply cannot be improved upon either in performance, composition, recording or arrangement. And a 'perfect' record should make your jaw drop every time you hear it. A perfect record can possess 'flaws' such as crude recording or sloppy musicianhip provided those flaws give it a unique and infectious charm that produces an eargasm.
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But 9 out of 10 guys might define a perfect record as something totally different than you. My all-time fave (perfect in my world) records are Madd Inc. I'll Be The One and Short Time by the Noblemen. They can't be topped. But if Mike's book or any book rates them lower than 10, so be it. Some of the world's leading authorities spent many long hours listening to each and every song and came up with a nearly flawless system. I love Mike's book and his rating system was well thought out and will never be topped.
 
I can't remember if it was already mentioned (maybe I did it myself, memory ain't perfect these days) but I believe "Hey Conductor" by Sonny Flaharty & Mark V should say Re:The League and "Out of Sight Out of Mind" by Limey & The Yanks and The Bit'A Sweet should say Re:Marauders (the Marauders' is the original, isn't it?). Sorry if this is redundant.
 
gregk25 said:
I love how a new members who takes the time to explain his cause, is well mannered and appears perfectly reasonable, is welcomed with forthcoming mail like this.
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Fair enough, but here's the line in Raver's so called well mannered post that set me off...

So my quest from this point on is to discover all the records in the book that are stone cold killers worthy of a 10 but were criminally undergraded as not being punky enough.

So I guess that makes the guys who volunteered for this massive project criminals? I for one wouldn't introduce myself to a forum this way.
 
Frantic said:
So I guess that makes the guys who volunteered for this massive project criminals? I for one wouldn't introduce myself to a forum this way.
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Adv. 1. criminally- in a shameful manner; "the garden was criminally neglected"
reprehensively


C'mon Joey, you of all people are going to lecture anyone on how to express themselves on a forum? :lol:
 
Frantic said:
Correct, and I have the right to rebut!
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But preferably with proper arguments instead of just saying "you disagree? Write your own book!". I don't think this discussion, or this forum in general, benifits much from such a "love it or leave it"/"with us or against us" dichotomy. Especially with regards to a new member who, when all comes down to it, asks people what their favourite tracks are so he can discover some new music. Joey, you are one of the most knowledgable people in here, I'd much rather focus on your opinion on music which sometimes gets lost in harsh rhetorics, with all due respect. :)
 
I was fortunate to be asked to be a panel member for the voting on this project & no doubt had the highest number of "10" votes by far. A "7" in my voting was also an excellent side, my toughest decisions were for "8" or "9" tallies. My passion for certain sides was shared to an extent but by no means did the other members always share my particular taste. We all had strong votes for the various styles covered in my opinion.

A consensus of the votes was the most accurate way to go for the final listings. I think we each brought different preferences , listening histories & listening backgrounds to our votings. Yes, the now famed "Back From the Grave" sound will always be a favorite across the board as it should be - but I personally feel the final rankings are a superb mix of the various styles we voted on. It was also understood that we shouldn't discuss voting info with each other during the process.

Every one of us is correct to have our personal favorites & I feel the book reflects that. There are dozens of sides I think should have made the top 500 but didn't, that is just the way it goes.

Mike's project is unparalled in scope & commitment but should always be viewed as a reflection of the opinions of a cabinet vote.

As a side note, I can tell you first hand Mike's garden in not neglected - his property is well manicured!

Off the soapbox now -
Ned
 
The only song rate that really surprised me was Lion & The Leprechauns' "Mouse Trap" getting a 1. It's a pretty cool frat rocker, a bit too silly maybe, but definitely not bad.
 
This book is a mine of information but maybe i noticed a little mistake: impossible to find anything about Randy Hobbs's "You Better Run" on Gator, despite its inclusion in the index (or am I blind??).
Certainly not the same Randy Hobbs of McCoys fame as Internet says 1960 for the release date ? Any information on this fellow ?
 
And to continue the previous talk, a few examples of very underrated songs to me in TBM:
Things on my Mind by The Colony, the Chase by Joey Day or Blue Day by The Emperor's. All have a 4/10 rate when I would give them at least 7 or 8.
 
Nikopol said:
This book is a mine of information but maybe i noticed a little mistake: impossible to find anything about Randy Hobbs's "You Better Run" on Gator, despite its inclusion in the index (or am I blind??).
Certainly not the same Randy Hobbs of McCoys fame as Internet says 1960 for the release date ? Any information on this fellow ?
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The record came out in the fall of 1960, so it is too early to be listed in TBM, it should have been deleted from the index.
Randy Hobbs was from Newport News, Virginia.
 
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