The Outsiders' Tom King RIP
- Thread starter axel
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depravedskippy66
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It's probably tantamount to heresy amongst some here, but I'll gladly go on record as preferring the Rolled Gold era of The Action, along with Mighty Baby, to their "mod heroes" incarnation.
axel
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And please stop talking trash about The Action. What good does it do you?
"This band never did it for me, that band never did it for me." So what?!
Tell me about the bands that did it for you, instead of showing how ignorant you are.
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Ignorant? Me? HA! I'm FAR more musically open minded than some of you "Back From the Grave changed my life" minions!
If there is any one band that propelled me into the varied sounds from the '60s, it was the BEATLES, first and foremost, back in 197-dullsville-4. They, as they were in '64 for thousands of kids, were the catalyst to actively seek out '60s rock & roll.
Too bad for you, Axel, if you can't "deal" with the fact that there are people out in the world who disagree with your opinion on the recorded merits of the Action. I like hearing viewpoints from both sides, and not that of a universal, gushing, "Golly-gee, aren't these guys dreamsville? They're better than the Beatles!" (or Spencer Davis Group, for that matter).
I purchased the Paul Weller liner-noted salivated Action 'best of' in 1982, based upon rave reviews in '60s zines of the day...What a disappointment to hear dull, or limp renditions of soul songs that PALE next to the originals of the Marvelletes, Temptations and Radiants, to name but three. Now, if they wrote more original material, which I honestly think would have benefited Reg's silky lead vocals, then it would have been a different story indeed. Saying that the Action are some great, underrated group that could have been as big as the Beatles, with those soul-less remake songs? Gimmie Freddie & The Dreamers!
Now, the "Rolled Gold" stuff is better than the beat era sides, but again, I don't think it alone is worthy of the "high pedestal placement" I usually come across via reading print & web articles and reviews.
If there is any one band that propelled me into the varied sounds from the '60s, it was the BEATLES, first and foremost, back in 197-dullsville-4. They, as they were in '64 for thousands of kids, were the catalyst to actively seek out '60s rock & roll.
Too bad for you, Axel, if you can't "deal" with the fact that there are people out in the world who disagree with your opinion on the recorded merits of the Action. I like hearing viewpoints from both sides, and not that of a universal, gushing, "Golly-gee, aren't these guys dreamsville? They're better than the Beatles!" (or Spencer Davis Group, for that matter).
I purchased the Paul Weller liner-noted salivated Action 'best of' in 1982, based upon rave reviews in '60s zines of the day...What a disappointment to hear dull, or limp renditions of soul songs that PALE next to the originals of the Marvelletes, Temptations and Radiants, to name but three. Now, if they wrote more original material, which I honestly think would have benefited Reg's silky lead vocals, then it would have been a different story indeed. Saying that the Action are some great, underrated group that could have been as big as the Beatles, with those soul-less remake songs? Gimmie Freddie & The Dreamers!
Now, the "Rolled Gold" stuff is better than the beat era sides, but again, I don't think it alone is worthy of the "high pedestal placement" I usually come across via reading print & web articles and reviews.
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Also, the one tune that cements the Outsiders to G45 Central:
"What Makes You So Bad, You Weren't Brought Up That Way". It has the prerequisite "punky, aggressive attitude and rhythmic drive" and makes it stand out from their other recorded efforts. And I believe that is Tom King himself singing lead on it. NW Buckeye would know for certain.
and Axel, I do agree with you that the Outsiders were a fantastic, all-around group. From horn infused, r&b greaser sounds, to airy ballads, to edgy tunes as noted above...their only mis-step is the super sappy "Girl In Love". It's akin to the Beatles' "Yesterday". Saps-ville!
"What Makes You So Bad, You Weren't Brought Up That Way". It has the prerequisite "punky, aggressive attitude and rhythmic drive" and makes it stand out from their other recorded efforts. And I believe that is Tom King himself singing lead on it. NW Buckeye would know for certain.
and Axel, I do agree with you that the Outsiders were a fantastic, all-around group. From horn infused, r&b greaser sounds, to airy ballads, to edgy tunes as noted above...their only mis-step is the super sappy "Girl In Love". It's akin to the Beatles' "Yesterday". Saps-ville!
Ned
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The Spencer Davis Group had feel & drive to my ears, there was hardly a teen band that didn't do "Keep On Running","Gimme Some Lovin'" or "I'm A Man" as part of their set. Don't forget 2 or 3 sets a night had to get filled up with songs people would recognize & maybe dance to. To my ears - The Action are stiff & too controlled, maybe George Martin drove some of the feel out of them. Just me - but they are boring - MTM is on the money with this one!
Ned
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beccabear67
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I remember finding The Action disappointing as well at least based on a CD I bought, as with John's Children there was a lot of potential but for some reason it took a long time for any of them to hit the target musically. I do like groups like The Artwoods, Zoot Money Band and of course The Grahame Bond Organization (with Duffy Power even better). The Action had a lot of Who style image but The Small Faces define 'Mod' for me.
The Outsiders, The Buckinghams, New Colony Six, The McCoys... they were all over the place style-wise which tends to be a mistake commercially but I kind of like that in a group. The Byrds could have stood more variety on some of their albums (and now have it with bonus track CDs). I expect to have a bunch of minority tastes here anyway, such as actually liking early stereo for it's own sake.
The Outsiders, The Buckinghams, New Colony Six, The McCoys... they were all over the place style-wise which tends to be a mistake commercially but I kind of like that in a group. The Byrds could have stood more variety on some of their albums (and now have it with bonus track CDs). I expect to have a bunch of minority tastes here anyway, such as actually liking early stereo for it's own sake.
beccabear67
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I wondered if that name had anything to do with the 'Action Painting' art thing going on. The Creation jumped on that, and John's Children and The Move had some auto-destruction stage happenings. I don't know what The Action may have done performance-wise along those lines... doesn't sound like George Martin's sort of thing though.
buckeyebeat
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I'll try to straighten out some of the Outsiders info, from memory so this might not pass the accuracy test.
The Outsiders were one of many bands in NE Ohio that played 'greaser' music - a combination of pre-Beatles rock and roll, east coast doowop, early Motown/Detroit soul - and some British Invasion - but they tried to set themselves as NOT being British influenced or 'mop tops' - those weird looking longhairs were the enemy! The Outsiders were not as soulish, or adamantly anti-British as, say, Bocky and the Visions, but they were from that side of the musical tree.
The band that plays on Time Won't Let Me is King, Geraci, Mert, with Ron Harkai (drums) and Al Austin (lead guitar). Harkai played on some of the songs for the first LP, I think Jimmy Fox (of the James Gang) did as well. If you look at the 1st LP cover, the far right has Harkai airbrushed out (the liner notes don't mention a drummer). Harkai left to join the military. Austin didn't stay with the band, Bill Bruno came into the band. Austin was killed in a car accident a couple years later. The horn parts were played by a couple local guys, supposedly Ken Hamann (the engineer at Cleveland Recording) had to do some creative 'auto tuning' to get them to mix in pitch. All the Outsiders recordings were done at Cleveland Recording.
I don't like to speak ill of the deceased but Tom King was not the most popular guy in Cleveland music. His explanation for the Outsiders name (something to do with being an 'outsider' in his family) says more than I can. Actually the Outsiders name was assigned to them by Capitol - it was the first available name in Capitol's list of suitable 'teen age' band monikers. The band's constant turnover is also part of the personality conflicts. Tom's brother Don King was also involved (Don had been a member of the Starfires, the predecessor band).
After TWLM broke, the added Rick Biagola (I think he went by a non ethnic stage name) on drums - that's the lineup depicted on the Number 2 LP. The first couple LPs were recorded when the band was managed by Roger Karshner, a former (and future) Capitol rep living in Cleveland. Karshner recuited upstate NY native Chuck Mangione to help with arrangements and horn charts (neither of these two were involved with the TWLM recording).
After a year or so Karshner and the band parted ways. The band also went through three lead guitarists (Walt Nims, Bill Cavanaugh, and Nims returning) and another drummer or two, even Mert quit and they had some temp bass players. Mert returned to Denmark. By late 1967 the band was in complete disarray and Geraci and King had a split which resulted in two Outsiders bands, one with Geraci and Nims, the other with King (and Cavanaugh, I think - Cavanaugh later surfaces as the producer of the second Dragonwyck LP, he is now a studio engineer in NYC). The Outsiders on Bell is the Geraci band, the one on Kapp is the King band. The Geraci Outisders moved to Los Angeles with Nims and drummer Jon Guttman (Akron native who had been in the Chambermen and the Lime, briefly). This group eventually became Climax of "Precious and Few" fame. I have a promo pic of the Outsiders (for Bell) and Climax, using the same pic!
King did sing lead vocals on some of the Outsiders records, you can tell by listening. Also Joe Kelley (Shadows Of Knight) overdubbed a guitar part on "Gotta Leave Us Alone".
The Outsiders were a good draw in Cleveland, but not the biggest band in town. A summer 1966 poll (when the band was at their peak) had them finishing 5th (so the story goes) behing the Tree Stumps, the Saxons, the Mixed Emotions, and one other band - they were supposed to play a huge show with Paule Revere and the Raiders as headliners, but they had a conflict or (as some say) refused to do it as they didn't win.
The Outsiders were one of many bands in NE Ohio that played 'greaser' music - a combination of pre-Beatles rock and roll, east coast doowop, early Motown/Detroit soul - and some British Invasion - but they tried to set themselves as NOT being British influenced or 'mop tops' - those weird looking longhairs were the enemy! The Outsiders were not as soulish, or adamantly anti-British as, say, Bocky and the Visions, but they were from that side of the musical tree.
The band that plays on Time Won't Let Me is King, Geraci, Mert, with Ron Harkai (drums) and Al Austin (lead guitar). Harkai played on some of the songs for the first LP, I think Jimmy Fox (of the James Gang) did as well. If you look at the 1st LP cover, the far right has Harkai airbrushed out (the liner notes don't mention a drummer). Harkai left to join the military. Austin didn't stay with the band, Bill Bruno came into the band. Austin was killed in a car accident a couple years later. The horn parts were played by a couple local guys, supposedly Ken Hamann (the engineer at Cleveland Recording) had to do some creative 'auto tuning' to get them to mix in pitch. All the Outsiders recordings were done at Cleveland Recording.
I don't like to speak ill of the deceased but Tom King was not the most popular guy in Cleveland music. His explanation for the Outsiders name (something to do with being an 'outsider' in his family) says more than I can. Actually the Outsiders name was assigned to them by Capitol - it was the first available name in Capitol's list of suitable 'teen age' band monikers. The band's constant turnover is also part of the personality conflicts. Tom's brother Don King was also involved (Don had been a member of the Starfires, the predecessor band).
After TWLM broke, the added Rick Biagola (I think he went by a non ethnic stage name) on drums - that's the lineup depicted on the Number 2 LP. The first couple LPs were recorded when the band was managed by Roger Karshner, a former (and future) Capitol rep living in Cleveland. Karshner recuited upstate NY native Chuck Mangione to help with arrangements and horn charts (neither of these two were involved with the TWLM recording).
After a year or so Karshner and the band parted ways. The band also went through three lead guitarists (Walt Nims, Bill Cavanaugh, and Nims returning) and another drummer or two, even Mert quit and they had some temp bass players. Mert returned to Denmark. By late 1967 the band was in complete disarray and Geraci and King had a split which resulted in two Outsiders bands, one with Geraci and Nims, the other with King (and Cavanaugh, I think - Cavanaugh later surfaces as the producer of the second Dragonwyck LP, he is now a studio engineer in NYC). The Outsiders on Bell is the Geraci band, the one on Kapp is the King band. The Geraci Outisders moved to Los Angeles with Nims and drummer Jon Guttman (Akron native who had been in the Chambermen and the Lime, briefly). This group eventually became Climax of "Precious and Few" fame. I have a promo pic of the Outsiders (for Bell) and Climax, using the same pic!
King did sing lead vocals on some of the Outsiders records, you can tell by listening. Also Joe Kelley (Shadows Of Knight) overdubbed a guitar part on "Gotta Leave Us Alone".
The Outsiders were a good draw in Cleveland, but not the biggest band in town. A summer 1966 poll (when the band was at their peak) had them finishing 5th (so the story goes) behing the Tree Stumps, the Saxons, the Mixed Emotions, and one other band - they were supposed to play a huge show with Paule Revere and the Raiders as headliners, but they had a conflict or (as some say) refused to do it as they didn't win.
axel
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- Apr 21, 2011
I seem to be the only one here waving the flag for The Action, so you're pretty safe, I guess.
axel
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Pretty detailed information you have there, Buckeyebeat. Thanks for sharing it.
Just one thing I find a little irritating. If The Outsiders weren't the most popular act from Cleveland, then who was? I never heard of any of the other groups you mentioned.
axel
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I can absolutely deal with it.
But first of all this is a thread about The Outsiders so I don't see the slightest need for bashing The Action here.
Secondly I never heard anyone say that The Action could have been bigger than The Beatles. That's rubbish. They're just a band I love.
I really hate this kind of "this-band-is-better-than-that-band" kind of talk, so I don't even want to say what I think about the Spencer Davis Group, apart from the fact that Steve Winwood was undoubtably one of the best white soul singers ever.
Now enough of this silly bickering!
depravedskippy66
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Quite the convoluted history there. Didn't Tom King assemble a group and assign them The Outsiders moniker in recent years? I could have sworn hearing something along those lines.
depravedskippy66
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Don't get me wrong, Axel. It's not that I dislike the "mod heroes" incarnation of the band; they are indeed a pleasant listen. But having said that, I would rate them below The Who, Small Faces and The Creation. In terms of the pre-Rolled Gold era recordings, my personal favorite is "Shadows and Reflections" which is a very credible cover of an obscure Eddie Hodges 45. The original version can be found on Fading Yellow, Vol. 3.
Obviously the major issue with the "mod heroes" incarnation of The Action is the total reliance on cover versions; inevitably, comparisons will be made to the original versions and found wanting.
axel
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No, I got that. I was actually happy about someone saying something in favour of the group at all.
axel
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And here's something for someone to set the record straight. It is said that The Outsiders did it first.
All I know is they did it ultracool (if you think differently, feel free to start another argument):
In my very own opinion, this shows that Tom King was a top arranger. At the age of 24.
A.
All I know is they did it ultracool (if you think differently, feel free to start another argument):
In my very own opinion, this shows that Tom King was a top arranger. At the age of 24.
A.
Ned
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That Heart Beats clip is great. I was about 16 @ the time & would have thought that drummer was fuc*ing gorgeous!
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