Surprise, surprise - idle chatter about TBM

[Mr.Segment]

So the sound of silence is permeating the forum after TBM got published. I hope it´s because everyone is reading TeenBeat Mayhem and have no time for posting.

I thought it would be interesting to hear thoughts about the rankings, info that was surprising & the the quite shocking fact that Eddie Trotter´s heartfelt version of Heart of Stone received a cold shoulder and a measly 2 on the scale!

The 1000 greatest garage songs:

Top 100 is spotless, though I am surprised about the high ranking for Stoics and Bad Roads. Compared to the competition they get flattened in my opinion. Must be the legend factor weighing heavily in. Also a bit surprised about the Del-Vetts. That´s only my 5 cents though.

Cool to learn the Skeptics actually had three Thrush releases. I only knew about the one, want lists hereby updated!

So the Sonics (Inc) were actually situated abroad. I wish I´d put some money on this when I made my wise ass presumption some months ago. Is it safe to presume the 45s were also actually only sold/pressed abroad? Anyway, cool to finally read the story.

Great surprise to see the love for my beloved Shandels (NY)! 2x5 and 2x4 was way more than I thought they´d receive. A toast to you, gentlemen.

And the red label pressing of Denise with rawer vocals, does anyone on here own a copy, and shit, even rawer vocal takes than on the yellow label release sounds fantastic! Have this been re-released anywhere? If so it has certainly snuck past me.

So there, a start. Any other thoughts out there?

 

[greenfuzz]

But without chapters and no ratings - what would that leave? A discography. That was the main point of TBM in the first place. Everything else is just gravy. And very tasty gravy at that.

I was somewhat disappointed at first in the number of missing groups...but the more I listened to the songs I looked for that weren't included, the more I can understand why. The book does a great job in truly identifying the songs that do have a "teenbeat" sound. I have some quibbles, of course. If the Beau Brummels 'Laugh Laugh' is rated, then why not the Lovin' Spoonful's 'Do You Believe In Magic'? They don't sound alike, that's not what I'm saying, but they are equally important to each group's discographies and, if anything, 'Magic' to me sounds more teenbeat than 'Laugh'. But I'm sure every single reader to date has wondered why or why a band/song isn't included.

I pick up the book daily, and have started my own list of what I consider needed additions. It's already provided me hours of enjoyment, and I'm sure there are countless hours ahead where I'm immersed in the book. I really think it's fantastic.

 

[depravedskippy66]

While Teenbeat Mayhem is very clearly geared towards the choir, it is written in such a way so as to not scare off or alienate any comparative newbies to the genre. MTM and his crew did a hell of a job in keeping the book's tone even, measured and, above all, objective. For proof of this look no further than the Honorable Mentions sections as the likes of Carolyn Hester, The Grateful Dead and The Mothers of Invention - to name but three - would have simply been dismissed out of the hand had the book come across as the manic ravings of a clique of drooling fanboys. Such an approach would rendered Teenbeat Mayhem a dull read pretty quickly, ensuring that it would not be worth taking seriously. Kudos to the Gang of 14 for NOT going that route.

I honesty don't see the point in complaining about the Greg Shaw piece. After all, the interest in garage bands did not happen overnight out of nowhere; background information/context is certainly called for with a book of this stature. Also, given that Greg has taken more than his fair share of beatings over the years it's a nice way to restore some balance to the matter.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Connecticut chapter, either. As Mike is a CT native, nothing wrong with allowing for a personal touch to the book in that regard. Besides, local newspapers back then would occasionally write on bands tearing up their respective local scenes and who were about to go in and cut their first, and sometimes only, 45. All in the name of "something for the kids" as editors back then might have said.

True, the ratings will undoubtedly be the biggest bone of contention for the majority of readers but, really, so what? This is all subjective; nothing to get hung about!

Humor may be in short supply but there are plenty of fanzines out there to make up for the lack of it here. Just appreciate Teenbeat Mayhem for what it is rather than lament it for what you may think is missing from it!

 

[Lee de Parade]

My only complaint is my cognitive disabilities, but I think I've worked out a system to absorb the volume of the tome.
And I am proud to be a part of the society buying this book, and talking about it in real time!
I am happy it ever even got RELEASED (since I thought MTM was too OCD to ever let his baby go).
Now it rests there, on my bedroom table, waiting for me to muster up some strength to read some pages.

And each time I do - and I do - I think of you: my funny little fairy forum friends, and a smile appears over face. Yes it rises like a rainbow out of a poor man's ass after a rainy day in New Orleans. And I say to my self - "I know what lies at the end of a rainbow...a middle aged man with a smelly boner, a fuzzy heart and a book pressed to his chest."

 

[EXPO67]

I've had the book for 2 weeks now and I've picked it up to read and/or look for information on every single day since. The Chapter "Dance, USA!" is an excelent historical essay and I'm pleased that it included the important 'garage revival' scene of the 80s....which for me was my 'gateway' into '60s teenbeat.

Every day I marvel at the low scores some of my favourite folk rockers and merseybeat style 45s have received. It's clear that the 'Cabinet' weren't keen on this type of garage sound. Same goes for psychedelia.

OMG!!! The Turtles 'Outside Chance' scores a 4.....do me a friggin' favour???

 

[Patrick the Lama]

Same goes for psychedelia.

Oddly, one of the most psychedelic 45s in the entire tome -- "Optical Sound" -- gets a very high rating.This is to my ears a very pure "acid" type of psych with almost no garage elements, so that was interesting to see. If the rating cabinet likes "Optical Sound" so much, there is a whole bunch of stuff (not on 45) they may want to look more into.

I was very pleased to see "Last Time Around" rate so high, I think it's an absolute monster that blows almost all the rare BFTG 45s away.

There are a couple of titles where the rating has me puzzled, but I'm waiting to hear back from Mike before getting into that... maybe this isn't the proper forum either.

 

[MopTopMike]

I've had the book for 2 weeks now and I've picked it up to read and/or look for information on every single day since. The Chapter "Dance, USA!" is an excelent historical essay and I'm pleased that it included the important 'garage revival' scene of the 80s....which for me was my 'gateway' into '60s teenbeat.

Every day I marvel at the low scores some of my favourite folk rockers and merseybeat style 45s have received. It's clear that the 'Cabinet' weren't keen on this type of garage sound. Same goes for psychedelia.

OMG!!! The Turtles 'Outside Chance' scores a 4.....do me a friggin' favour???

Where ARE you looking, Expo?
It scored a 7.
The "4" you see is for the song "Making My Mind Up", paired with "Outside Chance" on the flipside.
I do not rate the same song again if it was released a second time.

There are three devoted "psych heads" on the cabinet team. And there are a couple of guys who dislike the style too. That's how a consensus vote is derived.

 

[EXPO67]

Where ARE you looking, Expo?
It scored a 7.
The "4" you see is for the song "Making My Mind Up", paired with "Outside Chance" on the flipside.
I do not rate the same song again if it was released a second time.

There are three devoted "psych heads" on the cabinet team. And there are a couple of guys who dislike the style too. That's how a consensus vote is derived.

Oops....my apologies... I'm going blind.
Well, a score of 7 is perfect. It is what I had in mind.

 

[Patrick the Lama]

So, of course, I flip to the Top 1000 right away, pausing briefly to admire the incredibly attractive pages upon pages of full-color 45 labels. Can't argue with the #1 pick, which is the right one from a lot of angles, and will contribute to the book's credibility among those who are only semi-interested in garage. Similarly it was very interesting to see how many classic, major label "Nuggets" type 45s that rated high. Presumably the ingenious "Legend" factor that BossHoss invented has been factored in by the cabinet. I'm not quite sure why or how the TX Gentlemen came up to blow away everything including the crunchiest BFTG monsters, but that's what the book says.

I flipped back and forth for my favorite local/private garage 45s but found they hadn't rated overwhelmingly high. This is stuff like Shames "My World Is Upside Down" and the War Lords "Real Fine Lady", both whom got "8" in their ratings. I would surmise that some gave these 9s and maybe even 10s, which in turn must mean that others gave them 6s or 7s... and I must pause and ask how anyone can give such incredible bullseye garage tracks such a (relatively) low rating...?? My other two pure garage faves did somewhat better, this being the Omens "Searching" and the Mods "Give You An Inch"... which only furthers my puzzlement regarding the Shames and War Lords.

Of course, every TBM reader is going to raise questions like this, but I'm taking advantage of being an early mover.

PS oh yeah, the color on color problem you described with A-440 etc was no problem at all here, the band names opening each section were clearly legible.

 

[MopTopMike]

Oops....my apologies... I'm going blind.
Well, a score of 7 is perfect. It is what I had in mind.

I'm just kiddin' with ya, Expo! And I agree with the vote as well. I'd give "She'll Come Back" an 8 if it were only issued on a 45!

 

[MopTopMike]

Patrick, you'll have to wait until Beyond TeenBeat Mayhem is released - every single rated song will be shown with the corresponding vote tally breakdown.

I think I noted this before, but there are only 63 10s in the book. #63 to #1 were all 10s, but not equal in the resulting "mean" calculated from the votes.
#118 to #64 are the brigade of 9s
#309 to #119 are the 8s.

 

[ShyC]

Can you let Lee de Parade write the foreword to "Beyond TBM" then? That'd be cool.

 

[Patrick the Lama]

Right on -- I'm not seriously questioning or arguing with the TBM ratings, which emanate from people who are even more devoted to '60s garage than I am -- it's more a case of throwing names like the Shames 45 (a 2-sided mofo even) on the wall* and see what responses they trigger in this thread. Ditto for the Gentlemen -- I had no idea it was such a monster, although it's certainly good, classic garage.

*not literally

 

[MopTopMike]

Several interesting thoughts here - at least people are participating in some forum banter. It gets to be tumblin' tumbleweeds 'round here at times.

I welcome all criticisms and comments, of course, feel free to vent as you please. I don't take anything personally.

Do not get me wrong, I love this book and of course I appreciate the countless amount of time MTM has put into this. TMB is a reliable book when it comes to accuracy and detail, but compared to other efforts (like the "Acid Archives") I'm missing an important thing:
Humor.
It is all so SERIOUS.

Hmm, I wasn't aware that humor is considered a mandatory tone when one is writing a reference book geared towards everyone, and not just the "I already know this stuff" diehard collector sect. Moreover, as Depraved Skippy correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, that is the reason why some chapters may be viewed by experienced and knowledgeable readers as "preaching to the choir" or not relevant to personal taste.

Oddly, one of the most psychedelic 45s in the entire tome -- "Optical Sound" -- gets a very high rating.This is to my ears a very pure "acid" type of psych with almost no garage elements, so that was interesting to see.

Patrick's take on what he considers "garage" is one reason why I find that term overall to be a misnomer. It's all explained in the book, and I comment a bit further in the upcoming Ugly Things issue. Some people cite far too narrow a definition (ineptly played and recorded performances, three simplistic chords, snotty vocals-only, etc). - A false stereotype, to be sure, which is why I went with teenbeat for purposes of the book, a conjunction of teenaged rock & roll beat. A more "forgiving term". Listening to "Optical Sound", it certainly evokes an overall garage vibe - it is a song performed by teenagers in a candid, no frills type atmosphere. That is more identifying to the true meaning of garage than just targeting it to specific sonic elements.

Teenagers playing rock & roll with a psychedelic vibe are in the same league as the kids doing a slow-dance ballad, a merseybeat cop, a jangle-y lament, or a balls out "fuzz-punker" like the Gentlemen. Most call these musical efforts (based on the sound of the song, not the identity of the group) as garage.

The differences of personal opinion on, for example "Last Time Around" (one guy says "meh" while another says killer) proves my point regarding the consensus methodology for voting. And, as a result, the depicted TBM rating is a true reflective rating of a song's musical quality. If you think that a song rated an 8 should be a 9, well, that could be a valid disagreement. However, if you champion a song rated in TBM as a 5 as a personal rated 10, well, your opinion is in the minority and not reflective of everyone else's take.

Believe me, if I could have had 30 or more people involved int he voting process, I would have been able to take a larger tally result. I was fortunate that I had 18 guys participating at it was for the length of time involved (almost 8 years). But, the overall rating result would not change all that much from what is shown in TBM. Perhaps some 5s would be 6s, some 4s as 5s, but no way would you find a 4 suddenly rated as an 8 with more voters added. If anything, the results might be even more conservative than shown.

Mike D's. question is a fair one - why no rating for "Do You Believe In Magic". I left that as unrated, as compared to the songs listed and rated. The way I looked at it, "D.Y.B.I.M." is sonically aligned more to the pop-commercial side, as is the hit follow-up single, "You Didn't Have To Be So Nice". Plus, these 20+ year old guys were a big, national success from the start, not a group of one big hit single teenagers, which was often a decisive factor. I placed them in the Honorable Mentions "L" for the more teenbeat sounding B sides. If I included "D.Y.B.I. M, then where are 45s by the Cyrkle, Every Mothers' Son, more Tommy James & The Shondells, or even 45s by Gary Lewis & The Playboys. I like all of those groups myself. But, I have to draw a line somewhere. And I only had so much page space. Just because a song is shown as an X (no rating) it doesn't mean the song is bad or that it stinks.

Now, "Laugh Laugh" and the early Beau Brummels 45s were included as Honorable Mentions, because of their importance - the first group to creatively Americanize the Beatles style. They weren't just writing hopeful hit cash-in Beatle sounding knock-offs like the Chartbusters or other '64 era sound-a-like groups. The Beau Brummels achieved a unique original sound with their debut hit single, "Laugh Laugh". That alone is worthy of an Honorable Mention status in the book. While I agree the Spoonful had a sound that was not cookie cutter, The Beau Brummels are still widely considered to be little more than a two-hit group at best in the hierarchy of retrospective appreciation - certainly not regarded by most as on the level of the Byrds, a group equally as influential as the Beatles were to teens and young adults alike, but from the American side. And that's why I couldn't fairly list them in the book, for I would have to then include every other influential hitmaking group, and similar substrata groups / performers. I'd then have to include the Jefferson Airplane...why not the Amboy Dukes....or We Five...even Brian Hyland's mid 60s sides....

 

[anophelesrecords]

posted this on the launch channel, perhaps it's more appropriate here? I got mine on Friday. Enjoying it daily and thanks Mike M. for the great effort. My biggest quibble is that subjective, somewhat fine line drawn between a group's releases for a particular sound, for example, the Spike Drivers "Strange Mysterious Sounds" and Six Feet Under's "Freedom" not making the sonic cut, but I understand the criteria as stated in the book, so at least they are represented with other releases. Good to see Blues Company "I'm Comin'" only got a 3, if only because it gives me some optimism that someone with a purification fixation will want to unload a mint copy to me for a nice price!

 

[mansson66]

I have no problems with any of the ratings... I think most is pretty spot on and I "disagree" on some, but hey that's my personal taste
I also like the chapter on Greg Shaw. I know who he was (and I fondly remember mail conversations he took the time to have with a teenage me in the mid 80's). He's worthy of a legacy that he seldom receives in the "square" music press/history etc and I think it's a wonderful article.

Btw IMO the book is permeated with a dry sense of humor and wit... if it was really 'dry' I wouldn't be able to read it with such satisfaction. I like your writing Mike!

I do think that a chapter on local record labels/studios would be cool and interesting. Fenton etc.

And I still wonder why it says re: Kinks on The Brogues - Miracle Worker though... :O

 

[EXPO67]

Some Teenbeat porn.....

 

[Patrick the Lama]

And I still wonder why it says re: Kinks on The Brogues - Miracle Worker though... :O

I bet someone confused it with "I'm Not Like Everybody Else"; I've done the same thing myself on occasion.

 

[Laurent Bigot]

Some of the Re: are a bit confusing (pointing towards a remake rather than the actual original) but I guess that's where the bands took their inspiration. The Sandals "Tell Us Dylan" should say Re:5 Gentlemen by the way.

 

[greenfuzz]

Mike D's. question is a fair one - why no rating for "Do You Believe In Magic". I left that as unrated, as compared to the songs listed and rated. The way I looked at it, "D.Y.B.I.M." is sonically aligned more to the pop-commercial side, as is the hit follow-up single, "You Didn't Have To Be So Nice". Plus, these 20+ year old guys were a big, national success from the start, not a group of one big hit single teenagers, which was often a decisive factor. I placed them in the Honorable Mentions "L" for the more teenbeat sounding B sides. If I included "D.Y.B.I. M, then where are 45s by the Cyrkle, Every Mothers' Son, more Tommy James & The Shondells, or even 45s by Gary Lewis & The Playboys. I like all of those groups myself. But, I have to draw a line somewhere. And I only had so much page space. Just because a song is shown as an X (no rating) it doesn't mean the song is bad or that it stinks.

Now, "Laugh Laugh" and the early Beau Brummels 45s were included as Honorable Mentions, because of their importance - the first group to creatively Americanize the Beatles style. They weren't just writing hopeful hit cash-in Beatle sounding knock-offs like the Chartbusters or other '64 era sound-a-like groups. The Beau Brummels achieved a unique original sound with their debut hit single, "Laugh Laugh". That alone is worthy of an Honorable Mention status in the book. While I agree the Spoonful had a sound that was not cookie cutter, The Beau Brummels are still widely considered to be little more than a two-hit group at best in the hierarchy of retrospective appreciation - certainly not regarded by most as on the level of the Byrds, a group equally as influential as the Beatles were to teens and young adults alike, but from the American side. And that's why I couldn't fairly list them in the book, for I would have to then include every other influential hitmaking group, and similar substrata groups / performers. I'd then have to include the Jefferson Airplane...why not the Amboy Dukes....or We Five...even Brian Hyland's mid 60s sides....

All valid points...but 'Come On Down To My Boat" by Every Mother's Son, I believe, strongly qualifies. I would have loved to see The Amboy Dukes, Every Mother's Son, The Cyrkle, and Gary Lewis & The Playboys all included - but I understand you had to draw the line. What I'm finding is that if I look up a single by what we all consider a "garage band" it is without question included. It's the borderline entries that at times aren't - but, if they're borderline, that to an extent warrants their exclusion.